I'm an atheist lesbian and I disagree with you.

by Ravena
(somewhere in time)

A collection of atheist buttons

A collection of atheist buttons



I received this from Ravena who describes herself as an atheist lesbian. Here are her questions and my answers.

Atheist vs. Christian


Ravena writes: I want to start off and say that I am an atheist and a lesbian, this discussion intrigued me, so I decided to take a look. I looked at the verse (Romans 1:26-27) IN context and OUT of context. It doesn't change the meaning at all. I even used the most reliable translation. It is against homosexual tendencies & acts, as much as I wish it wasn't.

Rick's comment: The context of Paul's argument in Romans 1 has absolutely nothing to do with anyone being gay or lesbian. To say that context doesn't change the meaning of the verses indicates you do not understand the context.
1. Paul describes Gentile idolatry in Romans 1.

2. Paul then illustrates Gentile idolatry by describing idols and idol worship. He then gives examples of women who worshiped idols, v. 26, and men who worshiped idols, v. 27, in first century Rome.

3. For historical context, Romans is written around A.D. 58. For religious context, the fertility goddess Cybele was Protectress of Rome, with five temples in ancient Rome dedicated to her worship.

For cultural context, the likeness of Cybele even appeared on Roman coins in circulation in the mid-first century A.D. Here are links which further explain the context.

1. How can we be sure what Paul was talking about in Romans 1?

2. The context of Romans 1 is idolatry temple prostitution.

3. Does likewise in Romans 1:27 equate gay sex with lesbian sex?

4. How did you decide that Romans 1:26 does not condemn lesbians?

Ravena writes: As well, think of Sodom--the city that went up in smoke. Two angels in human form visited the only good man there. Other men crowded around the house, demanding that the two "men" come out so they could have sex with them. That was the last straw, and God torched the place.

Rick's comment: The story of Sodom is one of the easiest allegedly anti-gay passages to debunk. Even anti-gay evangelicals now admit that the Sodom story is not really about homosexuality.

According to the Bible, no one in Sodom is said to be gay. No one in Sodom is described as having gay sex. No one in Sodom is said to have a gay marriage. No one in Sodom is destroyed for being homosexual.

God carefully describes Sodom's sin in Ezekiel 16:48ff. and it is not homosexuality. These links provide more information.

1. The honest truth about Sodom.

2. The ancient Jewish understanding of Sodom.

3. Inhospitality is the Bible reason for God's judgment on Sodom.


Ravena writes: I suppose God designed men and woman to work a certain way with each other. And two men or two women engaged in a relationship is "unnatural", to say in the least.

Rick's comment: It is wrong to buy into the false accusations of the anti-gay crowd. Paul's use of the words, against nature, had nothing to do with two men or two women falling in love and spending their lives in committed partnership.

1. What does the phrase, against nature, mean in Romans 1?

2. How can immoral homosexual relationships be Christ-like?

3. There's more to Complementarity than Adam and Eve.


Ravena writes: Men and women were built to have sex with and impregnate. "Go and multiply" apparently. "Love" or "Born this way" doesn't make it right, according to the bible. I was born with sin. The point is whether I will ACT upon my lusts and temptations. But, after a verse I read that prohibited homosexuality, God then went on to say that through Jesus you are forgiven.

You Christians are funny. Twisting words to fit your own personal opinions, wants, and beliefs. Sometimes you even say "Well, the bible was written by human hands, so it could be errored or the verse wasn't suppose to be in there." or "It says THIS but it could ---even though I have hardly any sufficient proof and despite the fact that I study the culture back then I will NEVER really know how things worked--- mean THIS."

Why would I want to join a religion that has no faith in its own Bible? I'm pretty sure God wrote in a way that future generations would be able to understand as well. (I know I shouldn't judge God by some of His screwed up little followers, but still.)

Don't try to witness to me. I know all the games. All the words. All the logic. I'm old enough to have experienced all that.

Rick's comment: I've never been able to get my mind around the atheist belief that, Nothing created everything. I do hope you will revisit the context of Romans 1:26-27 by exploring the links I've provided. Thanks for your interesting questions and statements. And just for fun, you may want to take the Are you a good person? test. It's just four easy questions.

Did nothing create everything?



Professor Paul Davies, a physicist at Arizona State University writes: “Even if we don’t have a precise idea of exactly what took place at the beginning, we can at least see that the origin of the universe from nothing need not be unlawful or unnatural or unscientific.”

A British physicist, Robert A.J. Matthews of Ashton University in England, writes: “It is now becoming clear that everything can – and probably did – come from nothing.”

Richard Dawkins, in his book, “The Ancestor’s Tale” 2004, writes: “The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved literally out of nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.”

Nothing + Nobody never = Everything.




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homosexuals will go to hell?


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Ancient idolatry often involved sex.


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This page revised February 25, 2015

Comments for I'm an atheist lesbian and I disagree with you.

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Mar 04, 2014
Context
by: Mike

Hi Rick, Thank you for replying to Ravena's message. I have been honestly looking to find some solid argument that could support homosexuality, but I have not found any, either on this site or on others and I just wanted to reply back to a few points here.

You appear to constantly accuse "anti-gay Christians" of not looking at the context of the verses, but you appear to do so as well.

Rick says: "1. Paul describes Gentile idolatry in Romans 1."

Yes, that's true. Paul does talk about Gentile idolatry, which is clear from verses 18-25. However the main point is not idolatry, the main point is that the existence of God and his power have been clearly known by looking at the physical world around us, but even then, people decided to worship idols instead of God. However to include verses 26 and 27 in with this idolatry would necessarily include 28-32 in with idolatry too because it uses similar wording and in the same context, sandwiched in with the "Therefore" that starts verse 2:1-2. People did not acknowledge God, so therefore he gave them up to homosexual desires, and all the rest of the sins listed there. You cannot say that any of the other sins are fine when not in the context of idolatry, therefore you can't say that homosexuality is either. Whatever the context is for the verses that talk about homosexuality is the same context for those that talk about the other sins listed.

Rick's comment: Hi Mike - You assume when you read Romans 1:26-27, that Paul is talking about homosexuality. He was not. It may be helpful to read these links.

What is the context of Romans 1?

Aristides linked Romans 1 to worship of false gods, not to homosexuality.

Romans 1 says that Gentiles are guilty because of idolatry. Romans 2 says Jews are guilty because they did not obey their conscience. That is the meaning of Romans 3:9. Hope this is helpful.

Mar 04, 2014
Context (part 2)
by: Mike

Rick says: "2. Paul then illustrates Gentile idolatry by describing idols and idol worship. He then gives examples of women who worshiped idols, v. 26, and men who worshiped idols, v. 27, in first century Rome."

I'm sorry, but idolatry is not mentioned in verses 26 or 27. If you think it is talking about idolatry, you are reading into the text something that is not there. This is known as eisegesis. From the KJV it says "God gave them up unto vile affections".

af·fec·tion əˈfekSHən noun - 1.a gentle feeling of fondness or liking. "she felt affection for the wise old lady" synonyms: fondness, love, liking, tenderness, warmth, devotion, endearment, care, caring, attachment, friendship;

We are talking about inter-personal relations here, not idolatry. The ESV translates this word "passions". You don't feel affection or passion towards an idol - this is something you feel towards another person.

verse 27: "and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Again, nowhere does this mention idolatry, but "passions" and "relations" between people. If this were talking about idolatry then it would mean that a man and a woman could commit idolatry together, but two men or two women could not commit idolatry, which, of course, makes no sense. The only other possibility is that it is talking about homosexuality.

Finally, one thing to keep in mind for everyone reading this: Christians do not have an agenda when it comes to homosexuality. If the bible said it was fine, Christians would be fine with it too. The ONLY reason this is even an issue is because the people who DO have an agenda (the homosexuals) want to try to do exactly what Romans 1:18 says and suppress the truth when God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness.

Rick's comment: Mike, your view of Romans 1 is wishful thinking, not exegesis. Early Christians believed Paul was describing idolatry, not gay and lesbian interpersonal relationships. Time to do a lot more reading and study. If I were a betting man, I would bet that you haven't spent even one hour studying Romans 1. Reading it in several translations and looking up word definitions in an English dictionary is not study.

Jun 16, 2015
Response to Rick
by: Trey

What about Leviticus 20:13? I understand this was said by God under the old covenant but it is very clear here that God does not comply with homosexuality. "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." It is clear God is not pleased with someone who engages in homosexuality.

Rick's comment: Hi Trey - The context of Lev 18:22 and 20:13 is shrine prostitutes. That is even the view of anti-gay conservative Christian commentators.

http://www.gaychristian101.com/Shrine-Prostitutes.html

Some questions for Trey. If Lev 20:13 does refer to homosexuals being put to death, who carries out the sentence? You? Your pastor? Your church? Your county sheriff? Your state government?

How are they to be put to death? By hanging? By stoning? By lethal injection? By firing squad? By throwing them off rooftops like ISIL is doing?

Jun 17, 2015
Response to Rick
by: Trey

Well It seems to me that 1-6 is talking about prostituting oneself to Molech. After verse 6 it is clear that God begins talking on matters for all people under the title "Punishments for Sin." God is the ultimate judge. We are not to judge. No pastor, government, or any terrorist group. God has never given us that right. And I am not judging you. I do not even know you.

Rick's comment: Hi Trey - I note that you didn't answer my questions. Your view says Lev 20:13 is talking about gays. Man up and own the consequences of your view. If "gays" get the death penalty in Lev 20:13, who should administer it and how should it be done?

By stoning? By you and your fellow christians killing us? Some wicked hate-filled Baptists want to lock us in concentration camps until we die out. Are you okay with that as an appropriate death penalty for us?

Should we kill gays?

Second, all Christians are supposed to judge. Believing it is a sin to judge is not a biblical view. Are Christians supposed to judge?


We are talking about the homosexual act and God's view on such an act (as well as God's punishment for those who engage in the act, not my punishment for who am I to take the place of God?) My only point would be that we are all sinners and some of us have been saved by grace. But we are still sinners. The difference between a homosexual (who claims to be a Christian) and me is that I am ashamed of my sin and failures and plead for God's mercy once again. While a homosexual (claiming to be a Christian or Christ-like) is not ashamed and believes that he is honoring God with his body.

Rick's comment: I am always amazed when people reject God's truth about the context of Lev 17:7, 18:22 and 20:13 so as to maintain the fiction that those verses are really talking about gays and lesbians.

Is not the definition of marriage clear from Scripture, "A man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." I have read through the Bible and have never found a passage in which God condones homosexual behavior or marriage as pleasing to him or acceptable without punishment.

Rick's comment: And you also never found any verse which in context, condemns gays or gay sex or gay marriage. Only by ripping verses out of context can you insist that the out of context verses mean something they didn't mean in context.

Sep 07, 2015
Question
by: Mike

I submitted several comments months ago that really took me a long time to write and I see they're not posted. What gives? Why censor comment posts like this? If you are not open to a healthy discussion, maybe just disable comments completely so that people don't waste their time writing something that never gets posted.

Rick's comment: Hi Mike - I used to post just about every comment and I did not mean any offense to you but after hundreds and hundreds of comments basically saying the same thing - quoting the clobber passages or tell us we're going to hell, I got tired of the silliness.

Others would post a long quote from someone's website and others would post links to anti-gay websites which, in my opinion, promote false teaching.

So now, when a comment doesn't engage the topic of the article or when someone quotes the clobber passages yet again or tells us we're going to hell or favors us with their unsubstantiated anti-gay opinion, I do not post those comments.

This is not a free speech zone. It is my humble but sincere effort to reach the gay community with the glorious life-changing gospel of Jesus Christ. Again, no offense.

What must I do to be saved?

Sep 08, 2015
Reply
by: Mike

Thanks for your reply, Rick. I completely understand that if your site is too busy that it is impossible to reply to all of the comments, and I also completely understand how you would just block people who have nothing better to say than "You're going to Hell!!!!" or "God hates f*gs". I don't know if you or *anyone* in particular is going to Hell. Some of the world's greatest atheists have repented before they died and gone to heaven and some of the world's greatest "Christians" have been false converts, died and gone to Hell. Look at the sinner on the cross beside Jesus. Minutes before he was insulting him and then repented up there on the cross. Then look at Judas, who walked day and night with Jesus for 3 years and even performed miracles with the other apostles and sold him for 30 pieces of silver! Salvation is up to God and him alone.

Nonetheless, I just wanted to say that I genuinely came here looking for answers to see if there was actually any biblical reason not to condemn homosexuality as a sin and even though you gave me some, I honestly feel that every one of them fell short. I tried to explain that in my last message by working my way though (I think it was) Romans 1, but you decided to delete it. That's up to you. It's your website. For all I know you might delete this one too. However I just wanted to leave you with this:

- Keep studying your bible, and I will try my best to do this as well. Recently I have really fallen short in this area.
- Keep praying for guidance, both in regards to homosexuality, and in other areas of your life. Those who seek will find.
- Be humble. Nobody's perfect; not me, not you. Everyone has made mistakes. However, the majority of biblical pastors have come to the conclusion that the translators were correct when they say that homosexuality is a sin. Of course, the majority could be wrong, but they could also be right. I tried to come here with a humble heart looking for answers, so I urge you to do the same because the consequences of you being wrong is infinitely greater than if I'm wrong.
- And if some day, even if it's days, months, or years down the road, the Holy Spirit puts it on your heart (or conscience) that homosexuality is a sin, I urge you to heed his calling.

Rick's comment: Hi Mike - Good advice. In case you haven't seen it, I have an extensive section on Romans 1.

I disagree with your comment: "the majority of biblical pastors have come to the conclusion that the translators were correct when they say that homosexuality is a sin"

From the 1st century AD to the middle of the 20th century, no biblical pastor believed the word homosexual was correct because that word didn't appear in any Bible in any language. Paul didn't use it, no other human author of the Bible used it and God didn't use it.

To insert the word, homosexual, into scripture and then condemn gays and lesbians is a grievous error which has nothing to do with God's truth.

Feb 23, 2016
I find this argument interesting
by: Liz

I'm not gay, I do have 2 brothers who both are and believe different beliefs. I am a Christian a daughter of the one true God and believe homosexuality is wrong.I believe homosexuality is another form of a sexual addiction. God created man and women to be together. It states this a number of times in the Bible. You are twisting the Bible to make it say what you want. Jude 1:7 says "saudom and Gomorrah gave them selves up to sexual immorality and perversions.

Rick's comment: Hi Liz - Even anti-gay Christian scholars do NOT believe Jude 6-7 is talking about gays. Please click the link for proof.

Timothy 1:10 also says "for the sexual immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders, liers, and prejurere and what ever else is contrary to sound doctern."

Rick's comment:The Greek word Paul uses in 1 Timothy 1:10, which is translated, homosexual, in some inferior translations, is arsenokoitai. It has never meant gay or lesbian. It refers to shrine prostitutes or rapists.

I don't believe you can juust explain away the parts you choose to, to justify your life style. I think the atheist lesbein has more understanding of the Bible then you do.

Rick's comment: It is easy to accuse me of twisting the Bible or explaining it away, without providing any facts which indicate I do that.

The only way you could believe my atheist lesbian commenter is right is if you are ill-informed. I gently remind you that being a low information Christian is not the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

If you desire to be better informed, please reread the article, click on the text links and read that information AND read the comments previous to yours. I provide lots of links to additional information. Truth is within reach if you're willing to read, study and believe.


Mar 07, 2016
an update
by: liz

Forgive me of my shoddy research I graduated bible college 9 years ago and my herminutics are a bit rusty espetialy when I have 3 small children to care for. There are other verses in the Bible that talk against homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22 'Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. Leviticus 20:13 'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Or in the NT 1 corinthinans 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. Yes I know the greek word used here is Arsenokoitai. I did a word search and it turns out you are only partially right. This word has a lot of conterversy on what Paul was talking about when he coined this word. He would have studied the Hebrew Pentateuch and had to translate what was written in Lev. To greek so others would understand what he was talking about. According to crossway.org arsen means man and koite or kortas or koitai depending on verb or noun means bed. Put them together you have man bed or male only bed or bed of males. The word meaning "bed" carries a sexual connotation in this context—the Greek koitai is the source of our English word coitus ("sexual intercourse"). The conclusion is that the word arsenokoitai is referring to homosexuals—men who are in bed with other men, engaging in same-gender sexual activity.
I know that my studying will not change your view on anything. I tool offence to the one comment you said "I gently remind you that being a low informed Christian is not the fruit of the Holy Spirit. I simply wanted you to know that I am not a low informed Christian. I am however still reading, growing and learning more about my savior every passing day. God Bless liz

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