Are gay relationships always outside God's created order?

by Preacher Dan
(west of the Mississippi)

<i>Plato, unsaved Greek philosopher <br>and father of <br>christian Complementarianism</i>

Plato, unsaved Greek philosopher
and father of
christian Complementarianism

Rick Brentlinger Answers -

I received several rather long communications from a conservative preacher kindly pointing out that since gay couples cannot have children their unions are: 1. barren, 2. against nature and 3. always outside the will of God because 4. they are not part of God's "created order."

Preacher Dan understands God's created order to be one man with one woman, like Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:24, to the exclusion of all other marriage relationships. Any other marriage relationship is sinful and could never be affirmed by God according to Dan's opinion. Here is my response to this sincere yet sincerely wrong Christian gentleman.

My Response

Thanks for writing to me. I understand where you are coming from yet I disagree with your conclusion that homosexuality is always against God's created order. You have no basis in what scripture actually says to draw that conclusion.

Your position is known as Complementarianism and is as old as Plato (428-348 BC). In fact modern biblical Complementarity came from Plato, the unsaved Greek philosopher.

Just for the record, its not that women and men are not complementary. Certainly they are in many respects just as two men or two women are complementary in many respects.

Yet viewing male-female complementarity as the only option God will accept reads into scripture a private opinion that scripture never states. Your argument from the presumed silence of scripture is never a persuasive argument.

Preacher Dan noted that

"the union of a Holy-Spirit-filled man and woman together in marriage reflects the image of God on earth."
Implicit in your argument is the idea that Adam by himself or Eve by herself did not reflect the image of God. That has been argued by theologians for fifteen hundred years and your view is almost universally rejected.

As with your Complementarian/created order argument, you are drawing a conclusion based on scripture not saying something, like for example: 'God blesses gay relationships.'

Because scripture does not use those precise words, you conclude that God does not bless gay relationships. You then form your doctrinal belief based on what scripture does not say.

Using your logic, we could also conclude God does not bless ice cream, air conditioning, jet travel, Ford pick up trucks, interstate highways and indoor plumbing. Therefore anyone who uses those things is in open rebellion against God. Flawed logic always leads to flawed conclusions.

If your created order argument is true, that a Holy-Spirit-filled man and woman together in marriage is the only arrangement God will accept, then no marriage between unsaved people can be blessed by God since the unsaved are by definition not Spirit-filled.

Further, polygamy cannot be blessed or affirmed by God if your created order argument is true since it violates the one man with one woman paradigm.

Scripture trumps
your opinion

Only 44 verses past Genesis 2:24, in Genesis 4:19, scripture records the first polygamous marriage, not part of God's created order according to Complementarians. And in Deuteronomy 21:15-17, God makes provision in the law for inheritance in polygamous marriages.

God makes two other direct statements in scripture which lead us to believe God affirms polygamy (thus negating your created order argument), a statement by God the Father, 2 Samuel 12:7-8 and a comment by the Holy Spirit as the narrator of scripture, 2 Chronicles 24:2-3. I'll wait while you look them up.

Remember that God created the nation of Israel from the children of a polygamous marriage in which Jacob married two sisters and their handmaids, four wives in all. God affirmed this polygamous marriage by choosing children from each of the four wives to create the twelve tribes of Israel.

What about heterosexuals
unable to have children?

I do not argue for modern polygamy. I simply point out that scripture does not teach the exclusivism for 'one man with one woman' which you believe is the only kind of marriage relationship God will bless. If we accept your exclusivist viewpoint, that
"A heterosexual union produces life. Children as the continuing of the generations are the result. This is the created order at work. That created order reflects the nature of who God is"
then what do we do with an elderly heterosexual widow and widower who want to marry each other? They cannot have children. Their union is barren, exactly as you described the homosexual union.
"A homosexual union is barren. No life springs from it... For this reason, it cannot and does not reflect the nature of God or his character."
The elderly couple can nurture children or young parents. They can teach Sunday School, babysit for children or perform some other nurturing function for children. But of course, a gay male couple or lesbian female couple can also nurture and raise children.

There are many grandparents raising children today because the biological parents are drug addicts or in jail or prison. Does not life spring from their loving nurturing of children regardless they are not the biological parents of the children they nurture?

Do you remember the biblical story of Samuel, beginning in 1 Samuel chapter 1 in the Bible? When Samuel was about three years old, he was given by his biological parents to the elderly priest Eli who raised him as his own son.

Did life spring from Eli's nurturing of Samuel? Eli, a man who made a mess of raising his own biological children, managed by God's grace, to raise an extraordinary foster son, Samuel, who became a great prophet of God and who also wrote part of the Old Testament.

And isn't God's amazing grace
really the point?

Life and nurturing depend on God's amazing grace more than on meeting some rigid formula based on your 'created order' argument.

Although you view your argument as perfectly valid against gay male couples and lesbian female couples I am quite sure you will allow an exception for elderly opposite sex couples who cannot have children.

In your view opposite sex couples who cannot produce children may still marry in spite of the fact that they cannot have children and therefore by your own definition, their physical union is barren.

Yet if your argument permits exceptions at the two points listed above, (1) polygamy and (2) inability to produce children due to infertility, sterility or old age, by what logic do you allow those exceptions yet forbid similar exceptions for gay couples?

As much as you prefer to believe your views are based on the Bible, it is clear to many of us that your beliefs are never affirmed in scripture as God's truth. Instead, you've based your beliefs on what scripture does not say.

And now you expect the rest of us to join you in affirming what scripture does not say as absolute truth? Its not gonna happen! We have too much respect for the scripture to do that.

Comments for Are gay relationships always outside God's created order?

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Jul 24, 2012
Who is the head in the gay marriage?
by: Anonymous

how is the man the head of the man as Christ is head of the Church Rick??? IN the natural order the man is the head of the household as Christ is head of the church. The Bride of Christ is mentioned??? Being fruitful and multiply cannot happen with two men.

Rick's comment: Good questions.

1. In any grouping of two individuals, one will naturally take the leadership position. In the case of two men married to each other, the one in charge is the one whom the Lord singles out for that responsibility.

2. The bride of Christ contains men who are going to marry the resurrected God-man, Christ Jesus. That is what you believe from the Bible and you have no problem with that. Why view gay marriage as a problem then?

3. Be fruitful and multiply? When God said that to Adam and Eve, there were 2 people on earth. When God said that to Noah, there were only 8 people on earth.

Do you honestly believe that today, with more than 7 billion people on earth, we have failed to carry out God's command?

Must celibate people be fruitful and multiply? Must elderly widows and widowers be fruitful and multiply? How many children must one have to fulfill the command?

Mar 08, 2013
by: Anthony Thames

1Co:6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1Co:6:10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So I have a clear understanding, your view of effeminate and abusers of themselves with mankind is not taken in the correct context when effeminate would exclude men dressing as women or acting soft like a woman and abusers of themselves with mankind referring to sodomites (the act of homosexual males engaged in those acts)? God was clear in His direction to mankind, that we are not to deceive ourselves, anyone who practices the things in 1 Corinthians 6 will not inherit the kingdom of God. In creation He created a woman for man which is clear from Genesis.

Rick's comment: Hi Anthony - I believe your understanding is a little bit foggy. Sodomites in the Bible are always pagan temple prostitutes, not gay men or lesbians. These links explain the truth.

Truth about 1 Cor 6:9.

Truth about shrine prostitutes.

Truth about sodomites.

Hope this is helpful to you.

Jul 09, 2015
by: Don

I must ask, what does homosexuality mean to you? It is clearly stated here that it is wrong!!! No matter how you preach it or try to paint it different, it is clearly stated in this verse that it is WRONG!!! 1 Corinthians 6:9

Rick's comment: Hi Don - My answer is in my March 08, 2013 response to Anthony. Oh, in case you were not aware of it - the apostle Paul never used the word homosexual in any language because that word didn't exist when Paul wrote to the Corinthians.

Oct 01, 2017
By products of the Fall ?
by: Christopher

What about those claiming that complementarian where part of the original creation and that everything that came after that is only the result of original sin; blindness, disease, disorders. By products of Adam and Eve's sin and rebellion. This of course leads to the beleif that homosexuality and transgenderism are the result of the fall and therefore even if natural are still sinful.

I personally don't know what to make of this, but the implications frighten me; if such things are part of a fallen world, then one could make the same claim against autism.

Would you say Jesus teaching on eunuchs would refute such claims?

Rick's comment: Hi Christopher - My brother in law believes gays are a by product of the fall of Adam. I do not believe that. I believe God intended His creation to be diverse. Obviously, Jesus did not intend everyone to reproduce, thus, in 1 Corinthians 7:1-9, scripture commends people who are celibate.

One can possess normal reproductive equipment and not use it to reproduce and still be in the center of God's perfect will.

You make a good point concerning the teaching of Jesus about eunuchs. Jesus does not disparage eunuchs. In Matthew 19:3-12, Jesus tells us that eunuchs "so born from their mother's womb" are one of the recognized classes of eunuchs.

In the ancient world, the group known as eunuchs included gay men, lesbians, transgender people and castrated individuals and folks who made a choice to be eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

Here is my starter page for eunuchs with links to additional world class information.

Same Sex Attracted Eunuchs.

Feb 05, 2018
by: Sadie

So, I'm in my 20's and I've recently been struggling to understand asexuality and the unusual idea of a sexless lesbian relationship, as I grew up in a home and a member of churches that taught that you cannot be both a believer and an active gay. That being gay or coming out basically means you're forfeiting your salvation. Hard for someone who's in love with 2 other women to figure out on her lonesome. My research on these things have led me here.

I have a question about polygamy, as you keep mentioning it. Merely curious as to your insight. I can't tell from your articles whether you believe polygamous relationships to be blessed by God or not, whether in the old Testament, New Testament, or current day.

Rick's comment: Hi Sadie - These links give my views on polygamy.

Why is it biblically wrong...

Polygamy and open relationships

My thoughts keep turning to King David and King Solomon. David was punished for his relationship with Bathsheba by the death of the son they conceived together. Solomon was led away from God by his many wives and concubines, which he was warned about. And in the new Testament, 1 Corinthians 7:2, it speaks of each man having his own wife and each woman having her own husband. I've absorbed a lot of biased teaching on this one so the specificity of the verse escapes me. Is it speaking of only one man to one woman for a lifelong covenant?

Rick's comment:

Does 1 Cor 7:2 exclude gays and lesbians from marriage?

Condemning polygamy (which has been condemned by Christians for centuries but man's interpretation and traditions are not bullet proof, we could all be wrong in every area). Also, what of 1 Corinthians 7:9, in light of the argument as to whether gay relationships are acceptable in the sight of God or not. It is better to marry than to burn with passion. Thanks.

Rick's comment: In the Old Testament, polygamy is analogous to gay marriage today.

In the OT, polygamy was (1) culturally accepted. (2) legal, (3) engaged in by saved followers of God including celebrities like Abraham, Jacob, Gideon and King David.

(4) God and His followers in the OT did not: a. attempt to stamp our polygamy or b. legislate against it or c. use the power of government to outlaw polygamy.

Today, gay marriage is (1) culturally accepted, (2) legal in all 50 U.S. states and many other countries around the world, (3) engaged in by many genuinely saved and born again followers of God.

(4) In modern times, some Christians: a. attempt to stamp out homosexuality by demanding that gays be put in concentration camps. b. They support anti-gay legislation. c. They attempt to use the power of government to outlaw gay rights.

Common sense tells us that it is better for heterosexuals as well as gays and lesbians to marry than to burn in lust.

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