What does 'You shall not lie with a man as with a woman' mean?

by I think you are wrong
(Somewhere in cyberspace)

John MacArthur says <br>the context is temple prostitution

John MacArthur says
the context is temple prostitution

It means that what Moses is describing is the sinfulness of using sex to worship goat idols, Leviticus 17:7 or to worship Ashtoreth, the fertility goddess consort of Molech. Lev 18:21-22 makes it clear that worshiping false gods is sinful activity. This biblically and histor-ically accurate explanation is often dismissed as gays making excuses for our sinful lives. In case that is what you believe, here are some pages which will help you accurately determine context.

1. How do you interpret Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, man should not lay with man?

2. Lev 17:7 and goat idols, part 1

3. Lev 17:7 and goat idols, part 2

4. What are shrine prostitutes?


Honest Christians must go beyond surface impressions. Did you know that conservative Bible expositor and mega-church pastor John MacArthur believes the context of Leviticus 18:21-22 IS cult temple shrine prostitution? For any thinking Christian, that indicates that our gay Christian belief is not historical revisionism by gays. It is the fact-based result of believing what the Bible says, in context. John MacArthur believes that all gay sexual relationships are sinful yet here is what he says about the context of Leviticus 18:21-22.

John MacArthur says the
context is temple prostitution


"Judah’s syncretistic worship was reflected in the practice of swearing by the Lord and, at the same time, by Milcom, who may be either the Ammonite deity of 1 Kings 11:5, 33 or Molech, the worship of whom included child sacrifice, astrology and temple prostitution (cf. Lev. 18:21; 2 Kin 17:16; Ezek 23:37; Amos 5:25, 26; Acts 7:40-43)."

The MacArthur Bible Commentary, by John MacArthur, 2005, Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, p. 1038.

Notice that even someone as fiercely anti-gay as John MacArthur, pastor of Grace Community Church, Sun Valley, CA, admits in writing that Leviticus 18:21-22 is describing temple prostitution. In plainer words, the context was NOT gays, was not gay marriage, was not homosexuality.

If you reject the fact-based biblical cultural historical religious context which even anti-gay leaders concede, I wonder why? What biblical cultural historical religious facts do you possess which cause you to believe the issue 3500 years ago in Israel was homosexuality?

Most anti-gay Christians who reject the truth about Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 have not done much study on the topic. They're going on guesswork and baseless assumptions instead of facts.

Rob Gagnon says the
context is cult prostitution


Dr. Rob Gagnon is not a supporter of gay rights. Like John MacArthur, he believes all gay relationships are sinful. Instead of being a negative, that lends weight to their testimony about the context of Lev 18:22. Dr. Gagnon informs us that most of the homo-sex going on in Israel at the time Leviticus was written around 1450 BC, was cult prostitute sex.

"I do not doubt that the circles out of which Lev 18:22 was produced had in view homosexual cult prostitution, at least partly. Homosexual cult prostitution appears to have been the primary form in which homosexual intercourse was practiced in Israel."

The Bible And Homosexual Practice, p. 130.

Dr. Gagnon devotes more than ten pages of his anti-gay book to proving that the problem Lev 18:22 and 20:13 addressed WAS cult shrine temple prostitution. Dr. Gagnon earned degrees from Dartmouth, Harvard and Princeton. He is a tenured professor at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. If you disagree with him about the context of Lev 18:22, what facts support your disagreement? What do you know about the context that he does not know? Just the facts ma'am. Just the facts.

Are you an honest Christian?


At this point, doesn't it make sense for honest anti-gay Christians to re-evaluate their view about the context of this verse? When even anti-gay scholars tell you the context is cult shrine temple prostitution, wise disciples of Jesus go with what the Bible says in context, regard- less of what they used to believe. Honest people deal in facts, not opinion. Are you willing to be honest, dear reader?

When leading anti-gay Christians like John MacArthur and Robert Gagnon admit that the context in Levicitus was cult shrine temple prostitution, that's an important admission. Both men still use Lev 18:22 and 20:13 as if those verses refer to homosexuality but at least they're honest enough to admit in writing that the real context is cult or temple prostitution.

In my opinion, their income and their standing in their respective religious communities is tied to them vociferously denouncing homosexuality. So in spite of the fact that they know the truth and have put the truth in writing, they keep beating the anti-gay horse. Pray for them to repent and get right with God on this issue.

Just so we're clear...


The issue in 1450 BC Israel, Leviticus 17:7, 18:3, 21-22 and 20:2, 3, 4, 5, 13, was people using sex to worship goat idols and false gods. The issue was NOT lesbianism. The issue was NOT homosexuality. The issue was NOT bisexuals. The issue was NOT trans-gendered people. The issue was NOT two men or two women falling in love and covenanting to spend their lives together.

Git it? Get it? Got it!

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outside God's created order?

Comments for What does 'You shall not lie with a man as with a woman' mean?

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Nov 20, 2012
Homosexual cult prostitution
by: Anonymous

Thank you for that clarification. I have been reading the Bible, starting with Genesis, and I am currently 5 pages shy of finishing Leviticus.

Rick's comment: It is wonderful that you are reading the Bible! May I encourage you to make reading Psalms, Proverbs and the New Testament part of your daily routine also?

Sometimes when someone starts reading in Genesis, they get bogged down or bored by the time they get to Numbers and just quit reading. By reading a mixture of praise and encouragement (Psalms) and wisdom (Proverbs) and the New Testament about Jesus and how to be the Christian God intends you to be, you will have a more balanced Christian life. God bless you!

Jan 02, 2013
stupidity
by: Anonymous

so just because some mega church pastor who is only trying to please the secular world says its shrine worship, its supposed to change the entire populace of christians who can actually interpret their bibles? think, if he is a "mega-church", then wouldn't he have to say whatever would please his "itching-ear" congregation to keep that high church status? interpreting the verse for idol worship would not have been the case since God clearly states in Romans that any man that turns on his natural desire for a woman unto a man shall be subject to the consequenes, and I don't think he meant you'll fall into a loving relationship. if it were the opposite, then why wouldn't the God that why all serve just come right out and bless homosexual marriage like he did with heterosexual marriage? the fact is that it is an act of peversion and I hope that all who read this know they will never find peace living the life they are desperately trying to convince themselves is alright. Blessing to all that hear the word and realize it for what it really is: the truth that can set homosexuals free from their bondage.

Rick's comment: Five things you should keep in mind.

1. Anonymous false accusations are cowardly. Man up, grow a pair and use your real name from now on.

2. Ignorance is not a fruit of God's Holy Spirit, Galatians 5:22-23.

3. Ripping verses out of context to "prove" your false teaching about gays is dishonest.

4. Interpreting the Bible by ignoring context guarantees you will get it wrong every time.

5. You don't win any brownie points for being a low information christian.

Apr 12, 2013
hebrew words
by: Shane

Leviticus 20:13 says "and if an [iysh] lies with [zakar] as with womankind, both have committed an abomination..." does it not? according to Strong's concordance, "iysh" means a man, a husband, or humankind in general, but zakar means a "male." further research showed "zakar" refers to a male dedicated to a specific purpose. since the passage uses two different words to refer to males, would it be correct to say that Leviticus does not forbid a man from taking a husband, per se?

Rick's comment: What you have pointed out is another indication that the textual evidence points to temple prostitution, not two gay guys or two gay gals in committed relationship. Here are two helpful links.

Can you define sodomites?

What are shrine prostitutes?

May 24, 2013
There are no words
by: Randy

Dear Rick. I fully acknowledge that "God so loved the world"...and that includes sinners of the worst kind, including homosexuals. I do not go on hate rants or marches or participate any such condemning activity. But I condemn sin for what it is, and as far as I know, there are 2 ways to know sin: 1. The conscience bears witness. To this, I attest. I had some homosexual contact as a child, and even though I knew next to nothing about the Bible and didn't even know what "gay" meant, there was a very strong and definite sense within me that everything about it was filthy. 2. The Bible. Guilt in the conscience is subjective, so we need objective confirmation. While you try to build a sand castle of shaky and tangential arguments that a simple, pure-hearted believer would never conceive of or receive, the simple and pure Word of God remains the same as always: homosexuality is sin. No amount of twisting and turning and researching variances of ancient terminology can overturn Paul's very plain and simple condemnation on this subject in Romans 1.

Don't you suppose that since the first couple in the Bible, Adam and Eve are a picture of the deep desire in God's heart to have a Bride the church, that God loves marriage between a man and a woman? And, if so, then in what unknown aspect of God's purpose shall we see the union between men and men, or women and women? Is it some kind of a side show that God just smiles at and says "Oh well, didn't see that coming!" God does everything with a definite purpose and plan.

Also, please satisfy another curiosity. If homosexuality is not sin, then are fornication and adultery also not sin? And, if you say that they are, then please show me the scripture that sets up gay marriage as a holy institution in which it is pleasing to God for same-sex intimacy.

As you formulate your response, brother Rick, please consider Romans 1:28 and 8:27 in your heart before the Lord.

May 24, 2013
The issue is always context
by: Rick Brentlinger

Rick's comment: Your anecdote about about childhood, while interesting, is not normative for the body of Christ. In plainer words, we do not formulate doctrine based on your experiences as a child.

I agree with you that God uses our conscience, Romans 2, Psalm 50:23, to help us determine right from wrong, in conjunction with our born again spirit, the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the law He has written on our hearts.

What troubles me about your approach is that you prefer to ignore context. Ignoring context allows you to take verses out of context and insist the out of context verses mean something they never meant in context.

Using that system, you then condemn your gay brothers and lesbian sisters, staking out the moral high ground for yourself, as if we are less moral, less godly than you. I wonder why you do that?

1. Is it because you prefer to tout your agenda instead of teaching the Bible verse by verse?

2. Is it because you love your opinions more than you love God's truth?

3. Is it because you are a young Christian who does not yet understand the importance of context in reading and teaching the Bible?

Jun 20, 2013
Part 1 of 2: Please pray before reading
by: Dustin

Was doing some research and stumbled upon this article. After reading it and the comments /your replies to the comments I could not help but to comment on this myself.

Let me start by stating that I myself am struggling with homosexuality. But that's just it, it's something I struggle with, not accept. For I understand that homosexuality is, in fact, sin. It is something that my flesh desires, but as disciples of Christ, we must starve our flesh and feed our spirit. Homosexuality does not feed our spirit, nor is it a holy act. And we are called to be holy, as our God is holy. I feel as though there is plenty enough evidence in scripture to show this. Apart from whatever context you are saying that Leviticus 18:22 is referring to, the apostle Paul makes it abundantly clear in his epistle to the Romans that homosexuality is not a holy act.

Apart from the scripture that seems to be very clear on God's stance on homosexuality, that you seem to be stepping around rather than facing,

Rick's comment: Dustin, I have lots of pages about Romans 1 on this website. It may bring you great peace of mind to read them.

the Lord has shown me by the Holy Spirit's work in my life all the proof I've needed to show me WHY homosexuality is sin (sexual abuse /bad male role-models plays a big part for me personally). Just because we struggle with homosexual desires does not make us any less holy than anybody else as we are all sinners in the eyes of our Heavenly Father. EVERY believer struggles with sin in the members of their flesh. If we are not waging war between flesh and spirit then we are not born again and saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Jun 20, 2013
Part 2 of 2
by: Dustin

Let me finish by stating that I was unable to truly see the bondage I was in until I opened my heart to the Lord fully and accepted my many wrongs I have done in God's sight. Lust serves the flesh, which serves the enemy. And besides this lust I have towards men, I am also struggling with many other impure thoughts and actions. We are in a battle against our flesh. To accept the flesh's many desires is to have already lost the battle. Trust the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Never in my life have I even considered marrying or having a family, as I always thought I was born gay, (none of us are born gay, despite what the world would have us believe)

Rick's comment: Dustin, Jesus disagrees with you in Matthew 19:12 when he speaks of eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb.

but the Lord has put a desire within me for these things. When I think of being a husband and father, I feel more masculine and important than I have ever felt before in my life. The mere THOUGHT brings me more joy and purpose than any homosexual relationship I have ever had in my life has.

And the thought of this actually being a reality one day still freaks me out and makes me uncomfortable. But I know that the Lord has already changed me in so many ways and I have full faith that He can make me a Godly man who will be a husband and father one day, just what He made me to be.

I write you not out of hate or judgement, but out of love. I would at the very least ask that you open your mind and take your own advice and not hold onto what you've always believed in the light of truth.

I pray that the Lord shows you with loving kindness this truth in such a way as to lead you to understanding of this particular area. Understanding this truth has helped lead me to being broken in spirit, which is the only sacrifice our God accepts and the only thing that will allow God's strength and mercy to run through us in our weakness. I will be praying for you. I understand your struggle brother.

Rick's comment: Dustin, any leading you receive from the Holy Spirit will be perfectly aligned with what the Bible says, in context. It is clear that you have not studied what the Bible says in context and you have not based what you believe on what the Bible says, in context.

Exodus International, the largest ex-gay group on earth, went out of business - shut down their "ministry."

The Exodus Scam

God made you a gay man because God intends you to love and serve Him as a saved gay man. I wish you peace of mind as the Lord leads you into His fulness of blessing.

Sep 23, 2013
Do not be deceived
by: John

"For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error." Romans 1:26-27

Rick's comment: You're right John, it IS best NOT to be deceived. As your quote points out, the REAL issue is idolatry and the examples given by the apostle Paul point to idolatry.

The real context of Romans 1:26-27.


"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind" -1 Corinthians 6: 9-10

I think the Bible, in context, is pretty clear on what purity looks like.

Rick's comment: And the Bible is also clear about honesty, that we cannot rip verses out of context and then insist that the out of context verse means something it did NOT mean in context.

Christians who obey 2 Tim 2:15 and read the Bible in context understand the real meaning of 1 Cor 6:9 is temple prostitution, not a negative blast at gays and lesbians.

Jun 09, 2014
Condemning male/male but not female/female?
by: June

Paul making up a new word that is unclear on meaning and used nowhere else does throw doubt on the idea that he is referencing homosexuality. (He clearly is not since the root words only reference males.) Until we find secondary usage that directly defines this word, the definition one chooses to believe in for it will forever be more of a mirror of our own souls than actual proof.

However, this proof for Leviticus 20:13 is a lot more questionable to me. I do not believe in something just because names are thrown around for belief in proof. I need to see the trail of logic to be able to decide what I believe about it.
For this reason, I decided to follow the bread crumbs by looking up those words in Strong's Numbers.

I must say that I find it interesting that the two words used in that verse are different from each other. To think that it could only refer to temple prostitution seems odd, though, since this is a rather general word used (and somehow temple prostitution with women is not condemned?). All other acts that are condemned in this chapter are extremely specific.

The use of two different words for this is extremely interesting, however. Again, I looked up these words in Strong's Numbers and found something interesting. Zakar is far less used than iysh and only refers to the male gender. Iysh, however, has more meanings beyond indicating the gender of the person. Some of the uses serve as a more general reference to people in general. AND this word also seems to be the word used to indicate a male who is married.

Theoretically, a possible interpretation might be that a married man should not be with a male as he is with his wife. (The word for woman in that verse is often used to indicate a female who is married and is actually used mostly to indicate that status.) Maybe there were husbands who were having sex with other men, thinking this is a perfectly acceptable deviation from their marriage since it wasn't an unmarried woman.

It is also interesting to note that the verb "lie" used to indicate the action going on between the males is different than the verb "lieth," used here to indicate the action with the woman, that the former verb is being compared to. Not sure what that indicates.

Jun 09, 2014
Cont. - Only male/male?
by: June

Regardless, the Bible never condemns lesbianism. Even the word Paul made up has male gender roots. To translate it as "homosexual" is disingenuous since we understand homosexual to include lesbianism when that is not even close to being indicated.

The thinking seems to be that women are fools to allow men to penetrate them and that being penetrated is demeaning. i.e. The woman "gives in" to the man, rather than the man servicing the woman, as is the female point of view when women actually enjoy it.

Thus, for men to "penetrate, conquer, and invade" fellow men is to make them female, a horrible fate for many men.
Women behaving sexually with women has none of those "men being removed from pedestal" implications. Nor does the paternity of the man's child come into question. Thus, it is NEVER mentioned. (Of course, in those days, women could never hope to survive well without marrying a man or being supported by male relatives. So men didn't worry so much about women shunning marriage to men in favor of marrying a woman)...

The Ten Commandments seem to be the actual Law that comes from God for all people, while much of the smaller laws are either related to separating Israelites from those around them and as a sign of God's covenant specifically with making them his Chosen People (Circumcision, beard trimming, clean animal eating, etc.) or laws that are so variable that they change with the necessity of the times (not marrying your sister, laws surrounding the release of female slaves, laws regarding female inheritance of land, including animals in our diets, etc.).

Jul 14, 2014
Homosexual Love
by: Ceasar

Dear Rick, Thanks to you, I have found true happiness within myself and things are starting to come together. It has been a struggle for myself, but you have helped me realize that God works through love, and if two people love each other, they should follow their hearts. You have clarified to me (and to others) that loving and faithful homosexual relationships are not sinful whatsoever, but I want to know one thing that is disturbing me. If the love between both of the same sex is loving, caring, and faithful, and they recognize that the Lord is our Savior and have good intentions, does it make it wrong for them to be sexually intimate? They do not worship false gods that offer sacrifice through sex and prostitution. They just want to be close with each other in that way as well.

Rick's comment: Hi Ceasar - I answer your question at these links.

http://www.gaychristian101.com/when-is-it-appropriate-for-a-same-sex-couple-to-begin-a-sexual-relationship.html

http://www.gaychristian101.com/Gay-Marriage.html

http://www.gaychristian101.com/since-gay-couples-cannot-legally-marry-is-sex-in-a-committed-relationship-sin.html

Feb 13, 2015
As with a woman?
by: Don't wanna use my real name

How come the phrase "as with a woman" is in the verse? What is the meaning for that in connection to shrine prostitution?

Rick's comment: Apparently, God does not want His people using sex to worship false gods. That is the context of Leviticus 17:7, 18:3, 21-22, 20:2, 3, 4, 5, 13. God is against imitative magic and all of the foolishness associated with idolatry and worship of false gods.

For more information on the topic, please follow the text link.

http://www.gaychristian101.com/Shrine-Prostitutes.html

Feb 13, 2015
Just Leviticus?
by: Curiosity

Do you explain away all the passages about homosexuality and sin, or is it just Leviticus?

Rick's comment: Hi Curiosity - I recommend a careful reading of this page.

http://www.gaychristian101.com/Shrine-Prostitutes.html

Three words of advice for you in closing.

1. Do NOT believe everything you think.

2. Explaining the biblical cultural doctrinal historical linguistic and religious context is not explaining away what the Bible says. Please memorize the preceding sentence.

3. Wise Christians read, memorize and obey 2 Timothy 2:15. Are you a wise Christian?

Apr 29, 2015
interpretations
by: Deborah

There are probably a dozen bibles in my house and they all use slightly different verbage that people can twist. My favorite, however, is simple. It is the dusty old teen bible I used when I made my confirmation forty years ago. Along with other warnings in Leviticus like don't eat pork (because they didn't have the ability to heat it long enough to rid it of parasites) or don't eat shellfish (because so many people would be allergic).

Leviticus 20:13 says, "Men who lie with men will not be blessed." Two pages before clearly states that a blessing is a child. I'll never forget us all looking at our pastor and going, "Well, duh." and him exclaiming, "A lot of it is well, duh." What has got me through all the challenges I have faced in my life was my faith that I prayed to a loving God. My God would never punish someone for loving another person.

May 19, 2015
Problem
by: Tom Neal

Your problem is not with John Macarther, your problem is not obeying what Almighty God says in his Word. You change or twist one jot or tittle of His WORD, and there will be a special place reserved in Hell for all who teach this abomination and for all who follow, that's God's promise. He is a loving God but He is also a righteous God and cannot look upon sin. Therefore He will say, "Depart from Me, I never new you". Many false doctrines are being taught today, if it feels good do it, surely you will not die--same thing the snake, (Satan), said in the garden of Eden. Untruth and misinter-pretation will lead you to eternal hell.

Rick's comment: Hi Tom - Sorry you're having a difficult day. I think you need a vacation. One of the warning signs that you're on the ragged edge of nothing is when you consign people to hell for disagreeing with you.

It's time to get out of the house and away from your computer. Leave the phone at home and take a long leisurely walk in the sun. Breathe in the fresh mountain air. Make a mental list of the myriad ways God has blessed you and give thanks for each one.

God has more for you than lurking and commenting on gay Christian websites under the guise of evangelizing us. Hey - since you mentioned hell, here's my friendship gift to you - my FREE Bible study - Jesus Teaches Hell 101. Wishing you all the riches of God's amazing grace.

Jun 06, 2015
zakar
by: Marylou

Hi, In the paragraph regarding zakar. You referred to it as being humankind in sense quoting from strongs exhaustive concordance. I looked both words up you spoke of from Leviticus and zakar means remember in the strongs book. ???

Rick's comment: Hi Marylou - The confusion comes from two related Hebrew words, one of which is used in Lev 18:22 and the other which is not.

Zakar, a Hebrew verb, is NOT used in Lev 18:22 - zakar - Strong's H2142, a verb

vs. zakar - Strong's H2145, a masculine noun IS used in Lev 18:22.

Here is what Strong's Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament says about zakar.

"A primitive root; properly to mark (so as to be recognized), that is, to remember; by implication to mention; also (as denominative from H2145) to be male:— X burn [incense], X earnestly, be male, (make) mention (of), be mindful, recount, record (-er), remember, make to be remembered, bring (call, come, keep, put) to (in) remembrance, X still, think on, X well."

Jun 16, 2015
So what?
by: Gay teen and christian.

So what if it was about shrine prostitutes? The verse clearly condemns male-male activity alone. Lets say 2 guys stole something from store then they had sex, are we gonna justify the sex-condemning part because they were thieves?

Rick's comment: I gently encourage you to reread the article time after time and click on any text links, until you understand what you've read. I hope your "so what" method of ignoring context and facts goes away as you mature.

What must I do to be saved?

Jun 27, 2015
Context means NOTHING
by: Skip

You say that context means EVERYTHING. I say that context means NOTHING unless the sentence is not complete. The sentence that you refer to is complete and stands on it's own without concern for sentences before or after. You repeatedly only refer to that one scripture passage. You claim that it is misinterpreted since the context was prostitution in temples. The sentence did not say that it applied only to temple sex. It stated clearly that a man shall not lie with a man. NO CONDITIONS were applied. The sentence was complete and meant exactly what it said UNDER ANY CONDITIONS.

What about the dozen or more passages where there is no context as you wish there were? Have you referred to any of those? Many times in the bible, there are passages referring to men lying with men as abominations to God. You never refer to these. There are many more scripture passages that can be read directly without needing any "context". There are also many passages referring to marriage as with a man and woman.

Let me show you some:

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Genesis 34:9 And make ye marriages with us, and give your daughters unto us, and take our daughters unto you.

Genesis 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

Exodus 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

Deuteronomy 7:3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

Deuteronomy 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Matthew 22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

1Corinthians 7:36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

1Timothy 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

All of the above versus are marriages between a man and a woman. There is never ANY mention of a man marrying another man or a woman marrying another woman among Gods people or anywhere else. But we are explicitly told that men should not lie with men and women with women.

THERE IS NEVER ANY MENTION OF A MAN BEING MARRIED TO A MAN OR A WOMAN BEING MARRIED TO A WOMAN AS BEING SOMETHING BEING ACCEPTABLE TO GOD. I DARE YOU TO SHOW ME ONE.

God made Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve. - Skip

Rick's comment: Hi Skip - It is impossible to reason a man out of an opinion he was never reasoned into. I encourage you to do a lot more reading and Bible study. Many thanks for stopping by.


Aug 20, 2015
Enjoy your stay in Hell
by: True Christ Follower

"What part of you shalt not," do you not understand? God is; THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER! What part of this do you not understand?

When are you politically correct, so called, pastors going to MAN UP and preach the TRUTH? Politically Correct, is BIBLICALLY CORRUPT! You are the fools God speaks of throughout the bible.

And as for the rainbow, I would suggest the Homosexual, not gay, Community read what the rainbow really stands for. You're not gay, you're sinful, You're God's child yes, but He will chastise you for your disobedience. Maybe that is why so many of your ilk commit suicide.

None of you were born that way, as science has proven. It is not genetic, it is a human choice, made of your God given free will. So like any good father, our Father will deal with you and it will not be enjoyable for you.

Rick's comment: You don't have enough courage to put your real name with your vitriolic words? I wonder why? It seems clear you've had a difficult week and you need to vent at someone. I pray the Lord will answer your prayers, meet your needs and help you develop the fruit of the blessed Holy Spirit in your life, Galatians 5:22-23.

Sep 21, 2015
hypocrite
by: scott a.

Rick you are a hypocrite to the nth degree. You preach repentance. Turn from idol worship turn from pornography etc etc. Yet hear you are living in the blatant sin of homosexuality which is a horrid sin yet you tell other people they need to turn from sin.

how dare you? have you ever read the passage in the bible about removing the speck out of your own eye before trying to help someone remove one from their own eye. In other words dont worry about trying to tell others how to live if you are living in sin yourself.

that would be like me living in adultery and saying nope the bible doesnt say anything about living in adultery. And then tell other people you sinners need to repent. Wouldnt that make me a hypocrite as well of course it would.

rick i can just see you arguing with GOD at the judgment saying GOD you dont know what your talking about you never mentioned homosexuality in the bible you need to read my writings on bla bla temple prostitutes. and GOD will say depart from me ye that work iniquity. Ie sin!!

Rick's comment: Hi Scott - Thanks for favoring us with your views.

What must I do to be saved?

Jan 05, 2016
Repent.
by: Christian

Freaking stupidest thing ever. You all are taking the Word of God out of CONTEXT. REPENT! HAVE YOU NOT READ ROMANS 1:27?!

Why are you rejecting the Lordship of Jesus Christ? This whole website is leading souls to hell! And you know what?

If you stay unrepentant, Jesus is going to spit you out of his mouth. Your whole website group thing is lukewarm! It's leading many souls to hell, and you will be accountable to the Lord for it on the da of judgement. REPENT, Jesus isn't coming back for a sinful church.

Rick's comment: LOL - Hello Major - Another Anonymous gutless wonder telling us we're going to hell because we disagree with him on the gay issue and afraid to use his real name. Major fail.

Jan 18, 2016
Genesis 1: 28
by: Robin

A man and a man cannot be fruitful and multiply. A woman and a woman cannot be fruitful and multiply. There would be no one here to argue the scriptures.

Rick's comment: Hi Robin - Are you ignoring the question? The question was about Lev 18:22, not Genesis 1:28. Your statements are only true if ALL marriage relationships were male-male and female-female.

The truth is, about 95% of people are heterosexual and only about 5% are homosexual. Therefore the human race is in no danger of dying out because some people in the 5% are legally allowed to get married.

I wonder how consistent you are in your beliefs? A sterile man and woman cannot have children. Would you forbid marriage for them? An elderly man and an elderly woman cannot have children. Would you forbid marriage for them? Or is it just that you enjoy showing disdain for gays and lesbians?

Feb 17, 2016
Deceived
by: Dave

Folks, you're wasting your time trying to convince someone who is not a believer that living a homosexual lifestyle is sin. A true believer knows this, not only from scripture, but also from the witness of the Holy Spirit that's lives within all TRUE believers. Satan is a deceiver and a liar and thats very evident in our world and in this case here. When someone talks about taking things out of context and is in fact doing that very thing, sadly, there's just no reasoning with them.

Rick's comment: Hi Dave - That's funny - We disagree on the gay issue so, instead of obeying 2 Timothy 2:15 and studying "to shew thyself approved unto God," you assume, without study, that you are right and I am wrong.

Then you accuse me of being (1) deceived and (2) unsaved and (3) taking things out of context - all because I disagree with you.

That indicates you are a lazy Christian or an ignorant Christian or a Christian who is young in the Lord.

I am attempting to reason with you by presenting biblical truth on this website.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

Are you capable of being reasoned with? Are you willing to obey 2 Timothy 2:15 and study so you can grow spiritually and rightly divide the word of truth? I hope you are.

Apr 26, 2016
No Hate
by: Tarale

First, I would like to open with a quote from John 8:7, where Jesus tells a mob about to stone a woman for adultery, "he who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone."

Being human, none of us are completely without sin, therefore none of us should be casting stones, physical or verbal at another. Which is mostly all I see in the comments: hate and anger at those who refuse to conform to the hate in our supposedly love filled religion.

Secondly, in regards to Leviticus 18:22, I've talked with several Jewish friends of mine, and they say our translation of it is off. I have been told that a closer translation would be 'don't sleep with a man in your wife's bed'.

As for the rest of it, in context or not, I know only one thing, Jesus tells us that love is our greatest calling, and I have not seen much love on this subject tonight. I pray that God show you all his unconditional love that it might work wonders in your heart and your life.

Apr 26, 2016
it means what it says
by: scotta

Its pretty clear it means no man should have a homosexual relationship with another man period.so if you dont think the bible condemns homosexuality. Then maybe one of GODS ten commandments that says though shalt not kill. Maybe that doesnt really mean murder then.but i know it does mean murder.just like this statement condemns homosexuality.

i mean are you saying nobody has to repent of sin? Of course they do. The bible clearly states unless you repent you shall all likewise perish. And yes homosexuality is a sin that anyone who is practicing it needs to repent or turn away from. If you are still a practicing homosexual then you are not a CHRISTIAN your father is the devil.

Rick's comment: Hi Scotta - You are ignoring context and assuming Leviticus 18:22 means what you think it means without any study, without any reference to Hebrew, without any reference to how the ancient Jews understood this verse.

If you want to be that lazy in your Bible study, fine and dandy. Many of us take the Bible a lot more seriously than that and so, we obey 2 Timothy 2:15. I hope you will get serious in your Bible study. May God richly bless you.

May 19, 2016
Lot
by: Arj

Can you explain why when the men surrounded Lots house and demanded that the male visitors be sent out so they could have sex with them that Lot called it wickedness and offered his two virgin daughters instead. Why would a righteous man say that if God Jehovah approved of the act? Lot was called righteous by the Lord. Sexual immorality was one of the reasons Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed.

Rick's comment: Hi Arj - You've asked a loaded question based on a false presupposition. Your question assumes that God, in Genesis 19, approved of violent gang rape by an angry mob.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are intelligent enough to differentiate between violent gang rape by an angry mob and a loving sexual relationship in a legal marriage.

Neither Lot nor God called a legal loving same sex marriage wickedness. Lot called a violent attempted gang rape by an angry mob wickedness.

In the context of scripture condemning a man lying with a man as with a woman, the text links in the article explain the context.

Leviticus 17:7, 18:21-22 and 20:2, 3, 4, 5, 13 are not talking about gay men. The context is shrine prostitution. Even anti-gay conservative Christian scholars admit that scriptural truth.

Shrine prostitutes


May 19, 2016
Lot
by: Arj

You and I both know that the Lord God Jehovah does not approve of sin, gang rape or single rape so why would Lot, a righteous man offer his daughters instead? It would still be rape so why would he make a distinction? Thanks.

Rick's comment: Hi Arj - Lot offered his virgin daughters (he had at least two more daughters who were already married) to the angry mob because of the Middle Eastern hospitality ethic.

The host was responsible for the safety of his guests. Women in ANE (ancient near east) culture were not as valuable as men. They were expendable. Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to the vicious mob was an awful sin.

As it turns out, the mob rejected the offer of Lot's virgin daughters and so, they were not raped and the angel visitors were not raped. No one has any kind of gay sex in Genesis 19.

In Genesis 19, Lot himself is raped by each of his virgin daughters. Therefore the only rapes which occurred in Genesis 19 were heterosexual rapes in which the rapists got pregnant by their own father.

Jun 03, 2016
Cult "Temple" Prostitution?
by: Jonathan

And who are the temple of the Holy Spirit, less you prostitute yourself with false gods?

Jun 29, 2016
Why didn't they write?
by: Shadow

Why didn't they just write "stay away from prostitutes and false gods?"

Rick's comment: Hi Shadow - I'll provide a scriptural answer to your good question. God does everything He does with purpose and plan. It may seem to us that He could have done it differently but the Bible tells us:

"For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?" - Romans 11:24

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." - Isaiah 55:8

Jul 26, 2016
Spin
by: Paul

Even Satan and Obama can quote scripture and spin it with all kinds of ear tickling treasure for those who need something other than the pure truth.

Rick's comment: Hi Paul - Broadcasting your ignorance with that comment is sad commentary on the state of your spiritual life. Have you ever read 2 Timothy 2:15?

Have you any plans to read, memorize and obey that wonderful verse? Ignoring biblical truth in context and responding with your accusation of Spin, is well, so twelfth century.

Sep 25, 2016
Why so much hate?
by: Jo Wegner

So many people commenting so much hate here simply because they can't understand the truth.

So let's humor the haters for a moment and say they're right. Its still rather hard to misinterpret the fact that, above all else, God wants us to all love one another as family.

I find it rather sad how so many, so called Christians, preach their word of God yet ignore this one simple thing. Instead, they spew so much hate and hostility that it would lead one to question if they are truly Christian at all or if they simply enjoy living under their own (obvious) illusion.

I am an adult transgendered, female to male, gay man married to a loving man who I met at church by the grace of God.

I am aware that the so-called Christians will probably hate me for those facts alone.

I would like to ask them though, if they are so sure of their own beliefs then why do they need fake names or anonymity to hide behind while preaching them? How is that I, a person who is fully aware of their hatred towards me, has the courage to post using my actual name but they do not?

A coward is a person who knows they speak lies.
What then, does this make those who, like cowards, hide?

Nov 22, 2016
Don't conflate honesty with hate
by: DebB

Your knowledge of Scripture is impressive. Please don't assume you are hated by those who disagree with your viewpoint. Please don't assume we have not studied or memorized or obeyed Scripture. I have gay and lesbian friends whom I love. I have also studied and memorized and obeyed Scripture for 40 years, since my relationship with Jesus began. Because I am not the Judge, my job is not to condemn. Because the Judge commands me to love my neighbor as myself, I am compelled to warn you by accurately reporting what the Judge has said in His Word.

Rick's comment: Hi DebB - What you seem to be saying is that because we disagree on the gay issue, what you believe about Romans 1 carries more weight than the commentaries by conservative Christians and the biblical cultural doctrinal historical linguistic and religious context I've cited and examined on 26 pages of this website.

Implied in your answer is the idea that since you are not gay, and since you believe being gay is a vile and detestable sin, you are more sanctified than gays, which allegedly adds weight to your argument.

I gently remind you that salvation, justification and sanctification flow from the grace of God as a free gift on Mt. Calvary, not from works like keeping the law given on Mt. Sinai.

In plainer words, you are not more sanctified by keeping the law, than are gay folks who acknowledge and live in the amazing grace of God. You have made no factual argument contra my akatharsian page.


I have read your article on the Greek word akatharsian, which occurs in Romans 1:24. The disputed meaning of that word does not affect the meaning of the following verses.

Rick's comment: I did take time to discuss my akatharsian info with Dr. Robert Gagnon in a phone call in September 2015 and after initially disagreeing with me, he looked it up in BAGD while we conversed and admitted I am right about how akatharsian is used in the OT.

Alleging that the meaning of a word like akatharsian is in dispute lends no weight to your argument. Words mean something, especially in the Bible. Paul used the Greek word akatharsian with holy purpose since what Paul wrote was given by inspiration of God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. God's holy purpose includes the way Hebrew and Greek scholars understood the meaning of akatharsian and how it was used in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT.


Romans 1:26-28 state that "God gave them up to vile passions." ("vile" = Greek 819 "atimia", which means infamy,indignity,disgrace.) "women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful"("shameful" = Greek 808 "aschemosune", which means indecency or shame; used also in Rev. 16:15 to describe the shame of being caught naked and unclothed.)

Rick's comment: The view of the earliest Christians who commented on Romans in the first two hundred+ years of church history is that Paul described shrine prostitutes in Romans 1. You have presented no facts which dispute their understanding.

Why is this kind of activity vile and shameful? I have my guesses, which are based on God's words in Scripture, but I'll use your own Scripture references from your reply to a previous post.

"For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?" - Romans 11:34 (not verse 24, as you quoted). "'For my thought are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,' says the Lord." - Isaiah 55:8.

Rick's comment: Those are wonderful verses but nothing in those verses supports your view or contradicts my view on gay issues.

Please know that I also have vile and shameful desires. I choose daily to obey these verses which I have committed to memory: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." - Gal. 2:20;

Rick's comment: This is the root of the problem. You assume, without any evidence except your opinion, that gays give in to vile and shameful desires. May I gently suggest that the right way to understand scripture is to first determine what a passage of scripture means and then base your views on scripture rightly divided, regardless of your opinion.

That way, your condemnation of us will be based on what scripture says in context instead of your opinion. The view you hold about gays being vile and shameful or having vile and shameful gay desires is not supported by any verse of scripture rightly divided, 2 Timothy 2:15.


"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." - 2 Cor. 5:17.

Rick's comment: Thank God for 2 Cor 5:17 - what a blessing it is to all who are saved. You seem to believe that being gay is a vile and detestable sin, so that, when God saves gays, God automatically changes their sexual orientation so that they line up with your opinion and so that they no longer have what you view as a vile and detestable sexual orientation.

Are you aware that the largest anti-gay group on earth, Exodus International, shut down their entire worldwide ministry in June 2013? They shut down because they finally admitted that no one's sexual orientation changed in their 38 years of ministry.


All who follow Christ are called to this life of daily death to self in order to find the greatest joy as a new creation. You are an excellent student of the Word. Would you be willing to pray for me? I likewise will be praying for you.

Rick's comment: DebB, let's be honest. What you describe as a daily death to self means something entirely different to you, costs you a lot less and impacts your life a lot less, than it does the lives of saved gays and lesbians upon whom you would impose your views.

Heterosexuals do not stop being heterosexual when they get saved. In the same way, gays do not stop being gay when they get saved.

Your view, while perhaps well-intentioned, demands that when gays get saved, they must become celibate for life or marry an opposite sex partner to whom they are not attracted emotionally or physically or sexually.

That is a grievous burden to place upon anyone. In the name of Christian love, you commit the same sin which caused Jesus to excoriate the Pharisees in Matthew 23:4 -

"For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

Why place heavy burdens and grievous to be born upon your gay brothers and lesbian sisters in Christ, burdens you do not impose upon yourself, when Jesus told us in Matthew 11:30 - "my yoke is easy and my burden is light."


This prayer is one of my favorites: "that the Father of glory may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe." - Eph. 1:17-19. Thank you Rick!

Rick's comment: I do not conflate your view with hate. I see your views as uninformed and based on an opinion some preacher taught you rather than being based on what the Bible says in context and rightly divided, 2 Timothy 2:15.

Nov 23, 2016
Will you pray for me?
by: DebB

Then would you pray for me, that I would come to a knowledge of the truth?

Rick's comment: Hi DebB - Yes, of course I'll pray for you. Please consider three things.

1. The Holy Spirit leads Christians into knowledge of the truth by encouraging them to believe what the Bible says in context. The canon of scripture is closed therefore God is not giving out any more direct revelation.

In other words, believing truth about the gay issue will not be a sudden flash of inspiration or an incandescent moment of revelation. It will be something based on diligent study of scripture and history and a heart open to embracing God's truth in context, 2 Timothy 2:15.

2. "Knowledge of the truth" in the Pauline sense, 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Timothy 3:7, is talking about getting saved instead of talking about gaining general knowledge about doctrinal issues unrelated to salvation.

3. Knowledge of the truth comes from believing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15) in biblical cultural doctrinal historical linguistic and religious context.

Nov 23, 2016
Thank you!
by: DebB

Thanks, Rick. I hope to meet you some day:)

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