Did Jesus define marriage as only between a man and a woman?

by Rick Brentlinger
(Florida, USA)






Recently Ken Silva of Apprising Ministries used the "Jesus said it ain't okay" argument from Matthew 19:3-7. Here is his email to me and my response.

"And Pharisees came up to Him and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that He Who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said,

‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?”
(Matthew 19:3-7, ESV)

Ken writes: "Rick, Jesus has just defined marriage as a male (man) to a female (woman), and that's how the men to whom He was speaking understood it.

That's always been the orthodox Jewish position as well as that of the historic orthodox Christian Church. Even John Shelby Spong admitted homosexuality cannot be defended from Scripture.

You are welcome to your views, but as gently as I can say it, they really don't stand in the light of Scripture."
Click here to comment.

My Comments / Answer to
Ken's arguments

Hi Ken- I will address your factually inaccurate statements point by point.

1. "to come to a conclusion biblically that same sex sexual relations are always outside the marriage covenant."

That is your opinion based on your presuppositions about male-female Complementarity in Genesis 1:27 and 2:24. Your opinion differs from what the texts actually say.

The Pharisees did not ask Jesus if "same sex sexual relations are always outside the marriage covenant."

Your interpretation substitutes your opinion - something Jesus didn't say - for what Jesus actually said. You are teaching your opinion - something Jesus did not say - as absolute truth. Obviously that is a false way of interpreting scripture.

2. "Jesus has just defined marriage as a male man to a female woman, and that's how the men to whom He was speaking understood it."

Your conclusion is not at all what Jesus actually said. The Jewish men to whom Jesus spoke did not define marriage as one man with one woman for life. When Jesus cites Genesis 2:24, by no means did Jesus or Jewish men understand Genesis 2:24 as prohibiting polygamy.

We know Complementarity (one man with one woman for life) is not God's ironclad rule for all marriages because scripture makes exceptions for other situations like (1) polygamy and (2) divorce because of fornication. The fact that there are clearly stated Biblical exceptions to Complementarity proves your absolutist view is wrong.

It also leaves open the strong probability that God intended the 5% of humans who are same sex attracted to be same sex partnered. This belief is based on 1 Corinthians 7:1-9 where the principle of partnership is stated.

"To avoid fornication, everyone (except those gifted with celibacy) should have an orientation compatible partner."

I believe scripture is clear that the Jewish men He addressed did not understand Him to be prohibiting polygamy. There is no way Jesus intended His words to convey the meaning you give them - that the only marriage acceptable to God is one man with one woman. Here's how we know that.

a. The first polygamous marriage is recorded in the Bible in Genesis 4:19, only 44 verses after the marriage passage in Genesis 2:24.

b. God and Moses, in Deuteronomy 21:15-17, made provision in the Law for polygamous marriages. This provision is never described by Jesus or any human author of scripture as accommodating human sinfulness, yet Jesus did describe divorce as sinful, Matt 5:32, 19:3-7, Mark 10:11-12.

Why do so many heterosexual preachers harp on the "sin" of homosexuality while ignoring the divorce epidemic in their own churches (sometimes in their own lives)? That is "straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel."

c. Many heroes of the faith practiced polygamy their entire adult lives yet scripture does not condemn them as living in sin. The nation of Israel sprang from Jacob's polygamous marriage with four women.

God is not an absolute Complementarian. In plainer words, God does not agree with your absolutist view and never states your absolutist view in the Bible.

God never encourages us to believe that the only marriage acceptable to Him is a one man with one woman marriage like Adam and Eve. Isn't it time you repented and lined up with God's view instead of championing your own opinion?

d. Jehovah Himself affirmed polygamy through His prophet Nathan in 2 Samuel 12:7-8.

"And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things."


At the point in time when Jehovah gave additional wives into David's bosom, David already had at least seven wives whose names are given: Ahinoam, Abigail, Maacah, Haggith, Abital, Eglah, 2 Samuel 3:2-5, Michal, v. 13.

Because God affirmed polygamy, that is clear testimony from God that He does not agree with your opinion that one man with one woman is the only marriage relationship God will bless.

e. The Holy Spirit affirms polygamy by inference in 2 Chronicles 24:2-3.

"And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest. And Jehoiada took for him two wives; and he begat sons and daughters."

3. "That's always been the orthodox Jewish position..."

Your statement is factually inaccurate. Jews throughout the Old Testament and into the first century AD accepted and permitted polygamy. The orthodox Jewish position since 1450 BC when Moses wrote the Pentateuch has been that Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 do not teach absolute Complementarity - one man with one woman for life - as the only marriage paradigm God will bless.

Instead the orthodox Jewish position affirmed and blessed polygamy. Abraham, father of the faithful and friend of God, was a polygamist, Genesis 16:3-4, who also fathered many children by concubines, Genesis 25:6.

Jacob, whose sons formed the twelve tribes of Israel, was a polygamist. God Himself decided that Jacob's offspring from four wives would become the nation of Israel.

4. "...as well as that of the historic orthodox Christian Church."

On this point too, your conclusion is historically inaccurate. There is no scriptural evidence that any early Christian who heard Jesus speak in person or who read Matthew 19 understood Jesus to be outlawing polygamy when He spoke of "two becoming one."

Events in Matthew 19 occurred around AD 29. 1 Timothy was written around AD 62 so there is at least a 33 year gap between Jesus' statement on divorce and Paul's statements in 1 Timothy 3.

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife" -1 Tim 3:2

"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife" -1 Tim 3:12

If Jesus intended to teach absolute Complementarity, that the ONLY acceptable marriage is one man with one woman for life, and if His Jewish listeners and early Christians understood that to be His teaching, then why did the Holy Spirit and Paul feel it necessary to point out that bishops and deacons may only have one wife?

If Jewish and Christian orthodoxy already understood that, there is no reason for the Holy Spirit and Paul to mention that having more than one wife was a deal-breaker for a bishop or a deacon.

The fact is, some first century Jews and Christians practiced polygamy because polygamy was never forbidden in scripture for anyone except bishops and deacons.

5. "Even John Shelby Spong admitted homosexuality cannot be defended from Scripture."

That is such as weak argument. Spong is a heretic of the first order. He rejects the deity of Christ, the necessity of the new birth, justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Spong also rejects the inspiration and authority of scripture. His testimony about what scripture does or does not teach carries no weight.

6. "You are welcome to your views, but as gently as I can say it, they really don't stand in the light of Scripture."

That is such a condescending statement. You cannot produce any verse of scripture which in context addresses same sex marriage yet you've concluded based on scripture taken out of context, that same sex marriage is never permissible.

What you've done is re-purpose a passage in which Jesus rebukes heterosexual Jewish men for their heterosexual divorce practices as if Jesus was really making a negative statement about gay marriage.

In your zeal to champion your opinion, you've stepped into the sandals of the scribes and Pharisees, "making the word of God of none effect by your (anti-gay) tradition." Mark 7:13


Ken Silva answered what I wrote above.

Here is my response to his answer
plus a link to his answer.

Comments for Did Jesus define marriage as only between a man and a woman?

Click here to add your own comments

May 12, 2010
nice try
by: lisa miller

it seems you too can take scripture and make it what you wish to say..the argument that something has 'no scriptural evidence' is weak in itself, as a defense for anyone's agenda. nice try, though.
i do enjoy reading you banter! have a great day!

May 13, 2010
just a thought
by: james c burgess

As I read some of the comments I get saddened by the level of pure hatred from ones that proclaim to be christians and write posts with their little "zings" and stuff.

I just don't get it. I'm grateful to be an open, out, christian gay man and fortunately pretty thick skinned against the "haters" yet I know so many that have been really hurt by many in the body of Christ. Just a thought after reading the post before me.

May 13, 2010
The blind misleading the blind
by: Kevin Schupp

Rick,

As always you've done a fine job of taking the words of scripture and applying true objective standards. As a man who spent many years studing God's word in bible college, I appreciate your non-biased study. Our evangelical, fundamentalist christian church has lapsed into biblical illiteracy. I find so many christians can't even quote a half dozen verses in defense of their own faith.

Pastors have now taken on a role much like priests of the Catholic faith. They dispense biblical truth to the flock who receive it with unquestioning faith. The day of personal responsability for our faith seems to have passed.

Untruth and biblical error, while often unintentional, flow from pulpits with nothing to counter or question its validity. Views on homosexuality are seeded in the minds of the believers peppered with the bigotry and bias of the standard christian view and never objectively dissected.

Much like the years of racial discrimination in our churches. Few questioned the misuse of bad theology and scripture pulled out of context to condone segregation in our churches. It took a minister like Martin Luther King to challenge the leadership of the church to bring about honest study and eventually THE TRUTH of our error.

Keep exposing the truth Rick. I believe some are listening. Scripture says,"Come let us reason together, thus says the Lord." I think that is all we are asking for gay christians.

Recently I've gone back to the Word to look a second time with objective eyes and an open mind as to some of the things I was taught. More than a few scriptures have revealed the inaccurate teachings of my college years. I surely appreciate the foundations of my faith I learned in those years. However I've also realized that some scriptures were taken out of context, culture of the time and original language were often ignored to conclude preconceived views. The commonly held view was preferred over the biblical truth.

I think that's what we call RELIGION. Let us now shed the traditions of man and seek the truth of The Living Word of God. The world needs the foundations of faith not the useless self-righteousness of Religion. Only the Truth will set us free.

May 13, 2010
Adventures in missing the point
by: Rick Brentlinger

Hi Lisa-

Unfortunately you're not alone among anti-gay Christians in missing the point. The Pharisees did NOT ask Jesus if marriage is only between a man and a woman. That is not now and never was the topic under discussion.

Yet anti-gay Christians insist on reading into the text what Jesus did not say, that marriage can only be between a man and a woman.

What folly to read into Jesus' citations of Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 that Jesus intended His Jewish hearers to understand that homosexual marriage is always wrong.

Talk about straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. I think you'll have difficulty slipping that one past God at the judgment seat of Christ.


May 19, 2010
2-3%
by: Anonymous

You state 5% of the population are gay. Apparently you don't have the balls to continue the ongoing lie that it is 10%.

I have read 2-3%.

Gay is a choice.

Choose Straight!

May 19, 2010
I feel sorry for you
by: Rick Brentlinger

It makes me sad you are so angry at gay and lesbian Christians. God the Holy Spirit isn't the source of your anger.

So what is the source of your anger?

Wouldn't the cause of God and truth be better served by loving your gay brothers and lesbian sisters?

Remember that our Lord Jesus Christ AND the Apostle Paul told us that "love" for God and neighbor sums up the law and fulfills the law, Matthew 22:36-40, Romans 13:8-10.

By the way, the statistics are all over the board concerning the percentage of GLBTs in the human population. I believe 5% is conservative - its probably closer to 10% but I prefer to err on the side of caution.

May God bless as you walk the path of His purpose for your life.

May 20, 2010
Always an Angry Response
by: KEVIN SCHUPP

Re: 5% of population is gay vs 10%

I believe you're correct Rick in being conservative with the 5% figure. However I think those of us in the gay population would say it is our experience that there are many more gay men and women than it would appear.

I've been amazed at the number of men who are living as heterosexuals and in reality are closeted homosexuals. The anger displayed in the things written by this person who can't even identify themselves indicates several things to me.

First, Anger is not a fruit of the Spirit. "If we have not love one for another,than the love of God is not in us." This may just be another religious person not a child of God.

Second, Homosexuality is not a choice. Most of the gay men and women I know realized at a young age they were different long before they even understood sex. The gay life is a hard one. I know of no one who would choose to be gay.

Third, "Choose Straight?" I would ask this person if they could tell me the moment, hour, day, month or year that they made the choice to be straight.

In conclusion I say to them: Your frustration that the gay population is larger than you would like to admit and your obvious anger at the gay population leads me to think there is a deep fear buried in you. It has been my personal experience and also a truth of scripture that "the truth will set you free."

Aug 16, 2010
Follow the scriptures
by: Faith

Many Christians will quote "The truth will set you free" but forget that is the preceding scripture that tells us to follow the teachings of Christ and the following scriptures that show the consequences (effects)of not doing so, John 8:31-38.

We as Christians are to admit that we are not doing so when the Word of God shows us that what we are following is not his teaching. We as Christians can be deceived into believing things that are not true and therefor live in bondage of sin.

We are forgiven past, present and future. If we ask God to search our heart to reveal any wrong way in us, He will reveal it and we then have the opportunity to be set free of the bondage of sin through repentance.

The problem is that the Homosexual agenda is to seek equality, but are looking wrong direction to achieve this. The argument is with Christ, not with fellow Christians. So I suggest the searching begin in the hearts of individuals and trust God to come up with the answer.

Then you will know if you are really hearing from God or not. Watch for the outcome. God will not go against his word.

Aug 17, 2010
Thanks Faith, for your comments
by: Rick Brentlinger

While I appreciate your comments, it gets discouraging after a while that so many Christians who lecture us on "following God's teaching" and tell us we are "going in the wrong direction" refuse to read the Bible in context.

Many gay Christians are at the point where they ridicule and/or ignore Christians like you because of your arrogance.

You have never studied the alleged anti-gay verses. You are incapable of discussing these verses intelligently. You cited no scripture and offered no arguments to support your opinion. You have not a clue about the context of the verses you believe forbid homosexuality.

Yet you deign to lecture us about following and obeying what God says. How I wish you would heed your own advice and "study to shew yourself approved unto God," 2 Timothy 2:15.




Aug 17, 2010
"TRUTH" is truth
by: Kevin

Yes Faith, I do know what precedes those words, "the truth will set you free." I have read studied and dissected them in their original language for 6 and a half years in seminary. As to following after my Lord and serving him, I've traveled the world in ministry, speaking to thousands of the gospel of Christ.

I've been blessed to lead hundreds to saving knowledge of our Savior. It makes me sad when christians who have decided to set themselves up as the judges of righteousness assume that because I'm gay, I am also ignorant of God's Word. They choose to read the scriptures in it weakest form, ENGLISH and come to wrong conclusions,based on "how it reads."

How the Bible reads in English is often misunderstood and obscured by western culture. In it's original language the Word becomes clear and vibrant. Like the difference between watching T.V. on a 19" black and white set as compared to a 60" HD LCD flatscreen TV.

Faith, before you speak of what you think you know, be sure. To speak in ignorance of the Word of truth brings consequences. Sadly many Christians condemn others based on what someone else said the Word of God says.

"BAD THEOLOGY" The application of Truth is that all God's Truth sets us free. The Scripture says, "rightly dividing the word" (2 Timothy 2:15). That phrase in Greek means to dissect as we would autopsy a body. That is how we are to study God's Word. Not to sit and and be told by a spiritual leader what the Word means and says. That's lazy theology.

Dear sister in the faith, please don't take this a a personal attack for it is not intended to be that! The fact is that as a gay Christian I've had to defend my faith and right to even be counted a brother in the faith, only because I'm gay. I've had to scripturally defend all I say and even my status as a child of God before my brothers and sisters in Christ.

For that reason it is important for me to study God's Word constantly. I speak from my heart when I say, "we must handle God's Word with understanding and integrity so as to teach the TRUTH and see it set people free." There is life everlasting in God's truth!

Sep 29, 2010
homosexuality is a sin.
by: Anonymous

One verse. Leviticus 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; this is detestable." (NIV) Romans 1:27 also speaks of this perversion. Need i say more.

Sep 29, 2010
Wow, who knew?
by: Rick Brentlinger

Thanks anonymous for your "courage" and for your "deep intellectual insight" in posting those verses. Wow, who knew THOSE were in the Bible?

Do you know the context of those verses?

Have you bothered to read and study the context?

Do you really believe they mean what you think they mean?

I know you're not interested in truth but on the off-chance that you may eventually become interested, check out our NavBar under What The Bible Says.

Click on Lev 18:22 & 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27.

Need I say more?


Oct 15, 2010
Condemnation
by: A Christian

Hey, my "opinion" doesn't count...nor yours. God's Word is the sole authority. S0 read Romans 1:26-27: "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." Underline perversion.




Oct 15, 2010
To A Christian
by: Rick Brentlinger

I understand why you didn't deal with anything I wrote. I know how difficult it is for some Christians to deal with truth.

I have page after page on this website explaining the meaning of Romans 1:26-27 - click the NavBar button for Romans if you're interested in truth.

Many thanks for stopping by.

Oct 18, 2010
I wish I could persuade you...
by: Kyle

Re: Wow, who knew?

My heart breaks for you Rick. I wish you could see the Bible for what it truly is. It is the living truth of God. It does not mean what we want it to mean, our opinions don't matter. I am afraid you have taken the Bible sorely out of context, because I am not sure how you take Leviticus 18:22 out of context. It is very clear as to what it means. I have studied these verses and know their context. The Lord is telling us (in a very straight forward manner) what we are not to do sexually. That's it. The end. There is not much more to say on this chapter.

I am confused as to how you get anything else out of the chapter. I read your "What the Bible Says" on the subject and I disagree! You are just making the Bible say whatever you want. It is clear that He is not just talking about shrine prostitution. I still don't really understand how you came to that conclusion. Where did you find your information? You say "Many Christians assume the Bible says things it never says." but that sir, is exactly what you are doing. What if you are wrong?

The last thing I want to say, is that, even though I disagree with homosexuality and things like it, I do not hate the people. The Lord commands me as a Christian to love people. Therefore, I chose to love the people and hate the sin. That is completely Biblical. God hates sin, but He loves me, and I am a sinner. AWESOME!

Oct 28, 2010
You need to study your Bible
by: Rick Brentlinger

Kyle-

It is obvious you have not studied Lev 18:22 and 20:13. If you had bothered to study those chapters you would have noticed the following.

1. They are addressed to the children of Israel - Lev 18:2, 19:2, 20:2.

2. The context is worshiping false gods, Lev 18:3, 21, 20:2, 3, 4, 5, 23.

Kyle wrote: I read your "What the Bible Says" on the subject and I disagree! You are just making the Bible say whatever you want. It is clear that He is not just talking about shrine prostitution.

Its interesting that you disagree but you present zero evidence to support your disagreement.

Dr. Robert Gagnon, the leading anti-gay scholar, speaker and writer, devotes more than ten pages of his book (pages 100 to 110) to defending his belief that Lev 18:22 was written in the context of shrine prostitution.

I do not doubt that the circles out of which Lev 18:22 was produced had in view homosexual cult prostitution, at least partly. Homosexual cult prostitution appears to have been the primary form in which homosexual intercourse was practiced in Israel. -Dr. Robert Gagnon, The Bible and Homosexual Practice, p. 130

I hope you will obey 2 Timothy 2:15 and not assume that your cursory reading of Lev 18:22 counts as study.

Your comment about the Bible, "it does not mean what we want it to mean speaks strongly against your confused opinion on the meaning of Leviticus 18:22.

Nov 01, 2010
Principle of partnership
by: Anonymous

In 1 Corinthians 7:2 doesnt say anything about what you wrote,it states Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

where did you get anything about orientation
on from?

people always forget what Jesus said in Matthew 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
nothing on same sex or eunuchs.

I dont think its about hate as alot of people think,its living right or trying to,if youre trying to live like Christ, which is a mountain, then you have to try to be as sinful as possible,IF I was a gay person and wanted to live like that I guess I would too be trying to justify it,just as I would any sinful lifestyle,but I already know Ill get something on this to disagree. but in the end,ill say youll have to live your life as you see fit because we'll never agree,God will judge in the end.

Dec 03, 2010
It helps to read before commenting
by: RIck Brentlinger

Good night nurse Anonymous! Couldn't you trouble yourself to at least read the post and comments before commenting?

You quote Matthew 19 as if its new information and ignore the fact that the topic in the post is Ken's false interpretation of Matthew 19, which I quoted at the top of this page.

FYI, a principle is something we derive from scripture based on what scripture says.

Please obey the words in the photo at the top of this page. Many thanks!


Dec 05, 2010
...
by: Kyle

I feel that we will get nowhere in this conversation. I have other things to say but feel that I am going to just hit a brick wall with you. I am not going to argue with a man who is not willing to listen to the thoughts of others. I have taken what you said and learned from them. Not in the way you would like, but learned from them none the less. I thank you for that.

I think it is interesting that you answered all of my questions and comments (whether I agree with them or not, you tried), except one. And that is, if you are wrong?

Mar 06, 2011
God loves gay people
by: Shefali

I am a Christian, and I don't hate gay people. In fact, for the longest time, I believed that God thinks gay sex is sin because that is what pastors told me, and, in reading the Bible, that is how I understood key passages. However, even then, I would tell gay friends - I may not like your lifestyle, but I love you and God loves you.

I have invited gay friends who are not Christian to church functions because I do believe God loves them and if anyone had been rude to them because of their being gay I would have been very upset. Christ said to love our neighbors, and that includes gay neighbors.

I have known gay friends who love Jesus and who live in celibacy because that is what they feel God has called them to do. I know others who choose monogamy. I personally think that the type of "gay lifestyle" promoted by Hollywood and a sinful society of multiple bath-house encounters per year, etc., is wrong and sinful. However, what about a gay monogamous relationship?

I have concluded and decided that since Jesus says to look at the beam in my own eye and not the mote in my brother's, I am not going to judge a gay person who chooses to stay in a monogamous relationship. If he or she is sincerely in a prayer-ful, loving relationship with God, then that is an issue between him or her and God. Similarly, if a gay friend chooses celibacy - that is between him or her and God. Some gay people may CHOOSE to try to become straight - if that is their choice, I respect that too.

All that being said, I cannot in good conscience agree with gay marriage. I will pray about this some more. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right. God knows the truth and I will ask for His guidance. Don't get me wrong - I believe gay people love just like straight people do, they have the same deep emotions, etc. But I don't necessarily find your arguments for gay marriage convincing, and there are semantics and so on that incline me against it. However, right now I'd be fine with some kind of civil union for gay people so that things like inheritance rights, etc., can be dealt with.

I do think you should be careful not to stereotype everyone who is against gay marriage as someone who hates gay people. A lot of us feel genuine love for gays as our neighbors but have reservations about gay marriage... and, who knows, perhaps this is something that, with more time and thought and prayer, we will come to agreement on.

I do think, BTW, that it is a good thing you have your site up because gay people do need to know that God loves them.

Mar 14, 2011
Marriage et al.
by: Rob

So far everything I have read on this site pertains to heterosexual lifestyles. Even your rebuttals point of pologymists and incest are Heterosexual. Please point out specifically where the Homosexual lifestyle is ok'd biblically. I am not asking because i ma being a smart aleck, I truly want to know.

On a side note I find it a bit ironic albiet also a bit stereotypical and insulting that my CAPTCHA for this post is FAERIE.

Mar 15, 2011
Did you miss Jonathan and David?
by: Rick Brentlinger

Keep reading Rob. I have lots of Bible based information about Jonathan and David and the gay centurion too.

As far as your assertion that everything on the website pertains to heterosexual lifestyles, the point of mentioning polygamy and incest is to present Biblical exceptions to the absolute Complementarity argument of our detractors. By providing clear Biblical exceptions, I have proven that complementarity is NOT absolute.

If complementarity is not absolute, as illustrated by Biblical examples of polygamous and incestuous marriage relationships, then their argument against gay marriage is debunked.

About the FAERIE Captcha, that may be nothing more than serendipity.

Mar 26, 2011
Sin is sin.
by: Anonymous

The Bible is clear that homosexual relationships are not right in God's sight. It is no different from the many other lifestyles or behaviors He tells us we are not to engage in. You can play with meanings and translations and contexts all day long but in the end you are merely trying to justify what you want the Bible to say when it clearly does not say it. I can admit I am a sinner. i know the things I do are wrong and I don't try to justify them. I understand that every church is full of all kinds of sinners who can't or wont even attempt to allow God to bring their life or lifestyle under conviction but to try to justify yourselves as not sinners is just as ridiculous.

Mar 26, 2011
Goofy and illogical
by: Rick Brentlinger

I love it! Anonymous is so absolutely sure that the Bible supports his beliefs, he doesn't have to cite any scriptures in context or make any arguments.

Instead of thoughtful presentation of his beliefs, he ridicules us for presenting scriptures in context, placing proper emphasis on the meaning of words.

Amazing!

Do you really think your lazy illogic will pass muster at the judgment seat of Christ?

My brother, I encourage you to obey 1 Peter 3:15.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

Apr 16, 2011
What Amber thinks God says about homosexuality
by: Amber

Leviticus 20:13 says "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

Clearly, God is saying here that homosexuality is a sin. He states in clear black-and-white that he does not support homosexual sex. So why would he support homosexual marriage? Marriage is suppose to unite two people, spiritually and sexually.

After all, in 1 Corinthians 7:2-5, Paul says:

"But in order to avoid sexual sins, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband. Husbands and wives should satisfy each others' sexual needs. A wife doesn't have authority over her own body, but her husband does. In the same way, a husband doesn't have authority over his own body, but his wife does. Don't withhold yourselves from each other unless you agree to do so for a set time to devote yourselves to prayer. Then you should get back together so that Satan doesn't use your lack of self-control to tempt you."

So, clearly God intended a married couple to have sexual relations. So, if he says that homosexual sex is wrong, then why would he support homosexual marriage? Marriage and sex go hand in hand.


Apr 17, 2011
Homosexuality and gay marriage are not sinful
by: Rick Brentlinger

Hi Amber-

Thanks for stopping by. I'll allow your first comment but I don't allow anti-gay folks to post multiple long comments proclaiming their opinion that homosexuality and gay marriage are wrong. The Bible clearly does NOT say what you think it says.

I hope you'll take time to look at the NavBar under What The Bible Says, where you will notice that I deal extensively with all the clobber passages. I do believe it will be profitable for you to do more study.

Jun 27, 2011
Hearing what you want to hear
by: Anonymous

I think anybody can take something and make it to be what they want. I personally believe and will always believe that homosexuality is a sin. I just was wondering why I would say 80 percent of your reasoning for it to be ok was based upon polygamy.

Also I researched some info about Matthew 19:12.

"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Do you know what a eunuch is? The writers are claiming that they are gay people but this is not true at all. A eunuch is a male or female that is unable or chooses not to partake in sexual things. So some, mainly regarding men, are born unable to get aroused so they can't have sex. Then back in the day people were castrated so they couldn't perform sexually. And then finally, some people choose to not have sex or marry like the pope.

And finally if you read the views of complementarity, that is absolutely rediculous. How can you say that christian views are based upon Plato's views because of this guys views. I can tell you that 99 percent of christians don't believe that and probably have never even heard of it, including myself.

I will personally be praying for all of you because hell is a very bad place and I would hate for you to go there.

Jun 27, 2011
Biblical answers, in context
by: Rick Brentlinger

Polygamy is used as an analogy because if there are several Biblical exceptions to the Adam and Eve template (like polygamy and celibacy), then we know, based on what the Bible says, in context, that complementarity is not absolute.

If complementarity (one man with one woman for life) is not absolute, then it is wrong and unbiblical to say an Adam and Eve type marriage is the only marriage God will truly bless.

I agree with you - you did a LITTLE research - so little that your conclusions are wrong. I hope you will continue to educate yourself by obeying 2 Timothy 2:15.

I believe you need to reread our material about Complementarity and Plato. There is a clear link between modern anti-gay teaching by Christians and what Plato the pagan Greek taught 400 years before the birth of Christ.

Jun 29, 2011
Lets think about this
by: Paul

Rev Rick- I have read and i know how you have disproved "all quotations" that attest to the "fact" that homosexuality is a sin and to put it better an abomination!

Maybe i will give you some quotations in the Quran "though i'm a christian" so you can reconsider what "all" your "spirit led" analyses of homosexuality is about! Read these(Quran 4:15-16,7:80-82,26:165-175,27:55-58,29:28-29)

And about Polygamy read: Acts 17:30- God winked his eyes and allowed certain things in the past because men were not in the state to receive the original purpose of everything

it is also true that Jesus accepts homosexuals as persons but not homosexuality as an act.

i know you've done a lot of research to prove your points but come to think of these!? have you ever seen two male or female "animals" mating? I pray that the same God you prayed to speaks to you again!

let me leave you with this last quotation and i believe you get out from being a victim!
1 cor 4:3-4

Jun 29, 2011
We always interpret scripture in context, 2 Tim 2:15
by: Rick Brentlinger

Hi Paul- Many Christians make it a hobby to take verses which are talking about shrine prostitution out of context and attempt to convince the unwary that the verses are really talking about homosexuality.

Those of us who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil, Hebrews 5:14, do not fall for that con-game.

Muhamed claimed to be possessed by demons. Nothing he is quoted as saying in the Quran is relevant to Christians and the topic of homosexuality.

Concerning polygamy, it will be helpful to read, What does the Bible say about polygamy and open relationships?

This page discusses polygamy in more depth.

You may also be interested in the New York Times Magazine article, Can animals be gay?

I leave you with 1 Cor 2:13-

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Jun 30, 2011
Please you didn't answer my simple question..
by: Paul

i asked if you've ever seen two male or female animals "MATING"... please i need your comment about that!

And with the polygamy. i quoted Acts 17:30 to inform you of how God overlooked many things in the times of old Testament!

Do you know that the church is the bride of God (Christ)..Have you ever considered why God always warned the israelites of committing "adultery" when ever they go after other gods?(Jer 3:8,7:9, Eze 23:37) the famous Exo 20:3..

Spiritually serving other gods apart from GOD alone is a polygamy adultery and it has the same principles in the physical marriage!

God always has the divine reasons for anything and the fact that he allowed men to go on with their swayed life doesn't mean he approves it!

can you show me a single quotation in the new testament that supports polygamy or homosexuality?

Of course you may try to quote and misinterpret one or two verses claiming it is for idol prostitution! but check these out!
1 cor 6:9...abusers of themselves!

Come to think of it, if even demon possed Mohamed could clearly state Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for this abominable homosexual act. what are you God possessed Rick saying!

i know am never in the position now to SAVE you because you've gone FAR! with justifying what is spiritually and physically wrong! but i pray that He who met zealous saul on the way will meet you on your sinful journey!....Amen



Jun 30, 2011
Well isn't that special!
by: Rick Brentlinger








Well, isn't that special! Are you really suggesting we should inform our reason based on your speculations about animal sexuality?

Yes, I know that the church is Christs bride. Are you aware that the bride of Christ contains men who are going to marry a man, Jesus Christ?

Your method of witnessing by insult is funny and a bit sad. I pray God you will learn to walk in the Spirit, Galatians 5:16, as you grow to Christian maturity.

Jul 06, 2011
Very clear!
by: Paul

Matthew 19:4-5 - Jesus clearly states that in the beginning God created male and female(wife) for the purpose of establishing marriage as between man and wife.

lets consider Gen 1:28. God commanded man to multiply because all arrangements for multiplying were made when he created man and woman!

i know you will bear with me that neither two male or two female couples can fulfill the principle of multiplying.

so what will that mean to God (JESUS "if only you believe in the Trinity")when one tries to disobey this simple principle by marrying the same sex?

of course these will be the possible conclusions to God.

1.God is unwise in asking man to multiply

2.God should have created the male to give birth!

but remember, "adoption of a child is not procreation or multiplication"

i keep praying for you Rev Rick..because am believing God He will use you "the same person" to save people from this abomination of homosexuality! Amen!

Jul 06, 2011
Answers to the, be fruitful and multiply, argument
by: Rick Brentlinger

Your prayers are much appreciated Paul, although praying for God to use me as a soul-winner and Bible teacher in the GLBT community would be more helpful.

Here are three Bible-based answers which address your "be fruitful and multiply" argument. Enjoy.

Does be fruitful and multiply cancel gay marriage?

Isn?t the Bible pretty clear that gay marriage is wrong?

Are gay relationships always outside God?s created order?

Jul 26, 2011
It's not always as simple as it may seem
by: kevin S.

As I read the many comments of those who express a anti gay view of The Bible I Continually observe them quoting the words of the text in its English form and saying QUOTE: It says what it says. It's clear, why can't you see that? My answer to that statement is, NO, it's not always as clear as you seem to think.

1. The books of the Bible were not originally written in English. The Old Testament was in Hebrew and Syriac (Aramaic) and the New Testament in Koine Greek.

2. The first translation of the entire Bible to be printed in English was the Coverdale Bible in 1535.

3. Translating one language into another is very difficult because of history, culture and idiomatic phrases. We use phrases in our society that would be difficult for foreigners to understand, like cool, dude, my crib, my ride.

4. The English translations spans hundreds of years and thousands of words.

5. We read culture into our meanings of words. In England, a FAG is a cigarette. In the U.S.A. some people would call me a fag (slang for a gay man).

All these factors and many more must be considered when translating and then interpreting the Bible. The impact of these factors on the translation can mean you get it right or you miss it completely. When Rick and others speak of context, content, culture and historic usages of words, this is what they are referring to.

Much of the Bible is as simple to understand as drinking milk but there are areas that are more difficult, like chewing tough meat. Sometimes an exhaustive study even in a easy area will shed new light in your heart and understanding. So, the next time you are quoting verses on a difficult subject, I suggest you go far beyond the words on the page and do some serious bible study.

Before you pass judgment and condemn a whole group of people (some brothers and sisters in Christ), you should check, double check and scrutinize your facts. 2 Tim. 2:15 STUDY(autopsy) the scriptures!!!!! You will be held accountable for your words. If you push someone away from a saving knowledge of Jesus, even as a believer, you have become an enemy of the cross.

We are called to preach that we are all sinners and need the Savior. We are called to preach the Gospel. Please brothers and sisters in Christ, let us put down the stones and REASON together! Healthy debate is good but hurtful and angry words distance and damage people.

Jul 31, 2011
Human
by: Anonymous

I believe God wants his children to be happy. Believe in God and accept Jesus into your heart, THAT is what is most important. If murderers and rapists can be Christian, then I am positive homosexuals can be to. God does not want us to judge others.

I have not studied the Bible, so I can't and won't say what the Bible says...

...in the Bible, the message and hope that it gives is not being questioned. Just take into consideration that specific words may... may have been taken out of context.

Sep 27, 2011
to June 27 Anonymous and your Plato comment
by: amy

Anonymous - Your comment about Plato, that you never heard of such things, and how most christians you know have never heard of such things: Exactly!

Many other people have heard of such things, it influenced thinking and writing, and made its way to you. However you could know if you chose to and we are responsible for seeking and finding. You are not a child.

I won't even try and get my head wrapped around the whole Anonymous Comment thing but I can't ignore the fact that Anonymous Comments belong almost exclusively to those who are uninformed and extremely angry.

Sep 29, 2011
Repentance is not accepting Christ in sin but replacing sin with christ
by: Anonymous

i read the comments of a anonymous claiming if rapist and murderers can come to the saving knowledge of christ, so can homosexauls.....

this is 100% true...bcs christ loves sinners "actors" but hates sin "act"... but remember an arm robber will not continue in armed robbery after acceptng christ because the act itself is bad and that is why he did accept christ..

you dont accept christ to justify what is sinful but justify the sinner...and homosexuality is not an exclusion....the homosexual is accepted by christ but not homosexuality...

what do i mean No homosexual should be condemned in christ but the act of homosexaulity should...

lets consider the scenario of the woman caught in fornication....jesus replied in john 8:11" ...neither do i condemn thee(the actor)...SIN NO MORE "the act"./..

so you see the issue here is not about condemning homosexuals to saving power in christ..but the act and until Rick and his people accept that the act is sinful..then the saving grace of the Lord is made VAIN in their lives(2 cor 6:1)..and that is dangerous...

God loves us and he need us to manifest true repentance in christ by changing from our sins and mind you...homosexuality is not only a sin but an ABOMINATION!...

Sep 29, 2011
Clever way to dodge everything I wrote
by: Rick Brentlinger

Before anyone can accept your, homosexuality is sin argument, you must prove it using scriptures in context.

You didn't even attempt to do that because you know that no verse of scripture in context, says what you believe about homosexuality.

Your hate the sin, love the sinner argument is incredibly unloving. You cannot separate your heterosexuality from who you are as a person. If I claim to love you but hate your heterosexuality, you would agree that is quite stupid. It's impossible to love you as a person but hate who you are as a person.

In the same way, we cannot separate being born homosexual from who we are as people. When you claim to love us but hate who we are as people, you are really claiming to hate us.

Will you always condemn your gay brothers and lesbian sisters in such a thoughtless unloving unBiblical way?

Sep 29, 2011
love the sinner hate the sin
by: AMY

Just a comment to anonymous. As always, as far as I am concerned, if you are not willing to put your name one should reconsider their hearts purpose in writing.

A. Christians generally don't practice loving the sinner and hating the sin and I think you and I both know that. I believe it is possible, and good, however that would require you to spend a lot of time taking the log out of your own eye. But christians sure do love to throw that verse around a lot; as if saying it is the same as a heart transformation.

B. There is nothing about this website that indicates that people who follow Jesus and love Jesus would not be kind and loving to people, or would in any way want to keep them from that relationship with Jesus. That has nothing to do with the content of this site at all.

C. Please tell me, after becoming a christian, have you gone and sinned no more? Are you sin free? Is your heart completely out of debt?

Please, I really would like a heartfelt answer to that question. And to be frank, after making that comment, and throwing that out there, you should be prepared to answer that. Thanks!

Sep 29, 2011
by Kevin Schupp
Homophobes are not good theologians

by: Anonymous

Dear Anonymous, I will make this one point one more time for all you ANONYMOUS commenter; be a man or a woman and stop hiding your anti gay rhetoric behind the curtain of anonymity. What?s your name? If you believe what you say is true, than you should have the courage of your convictions to take credit for your beliefs. Otherwise how can the readers take you seriously or give you any credibility?

Your comments are so theologically flawed and off the wall, that to address each point would require a college course. So I will address only two of your statements.

POINT #1 - What is REPENTANCE? Koine Greek words: Meatanoeo or Metanoia - The meaning of the word: TO CHANGE YOUR MIND OR A CHANGE OF MIND. TO THINK DIFFERENTLY

It does not mean; REGRET, SORROW FOR SIN, CHANGING YOUR BEHAVIOR, GIVING UP SIN, TURNING FROM SIN etc. or any other of the misinterpretations of the Greek word preached in many so called evangelical, fundamentalist churches.

??manifest true repentance in Christ by changing from our sins??Is not theologically correct. If you are going to preach, do your homework.

POINT #2 - BAD THEOLOGY: Christ loves sinners "actors" but hates sin "act"... but remember an arm robber will not continue in armed robbery after accepting Christ because the act itself is bad and that is why he did accept Christ..

BIBLICALLY SOUND THEOLOGY: Romans 3:23 All have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned everyone to his own way.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good and sinneth not.

1. Christ died for sinners.
2. We all are sinners.
3. We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. (It is our nature to sin.)
4. Stopping our sinning will not make us perfect. Just good ole boy sinners.
5. We receive Christ?s payment for sin to give us (positional) perfection which is required to go to Heaven.
6. We remain sinners (as long as we are in our sinful bodies) with our sins covered (atoned for) by the shed blood of Jesus. We are commanded to confess our sins.
7. Though the robber may halt his robbery, he remains a sinner.
8. If a chronic robber told me he had stopped robbing. I?d know he had not stopped but merely added lying to his sin of robbery.

In conclusion; Anonymous, your ramblings in semantics have nothing to do with Biblical truth.




Dec 26, 2011
Where's the defense?
by: Larry

i admit the idea of polygamy may be accepted by God (i have NOT researched the issue to say yes or no)you did NOT make the case for homosexuality.Do you have any BIBLICAL evidence that God approves of homosexuality?
also:
1. all biblical references to marriage (polygamous or not) are between MALE and FEMALE. Jesus ONLY affirms MALE and FEMALE and even makes a point to reiterate it when he quotes from Genesis.
2. on 1 Cor 7: Paul said its better to MARRY. marriage is ALWAYS between MALE and FEMALE so there is no actual basis for the statement you made "It also leaves open the strong probability that God intended the 5% of humans who are same sex attracted to be same sex partnered." just from the exegesis of the passage you are wrong. Paul also said in ch 6 :
"Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

either Paul is contradicting himself or your interpretation is wrong.

Paul condemns homosexuality in Romans 1:26-27

Leviticus 18 is an entire chapter of sexual provisions. you select 1 to disobey. should we have sex with animals now v23,our siblings v9 or aunt & uncle v12-14 our neighbors wife v20 can we sacrifice our children to molek now v21?
God ends lev 18 with this:
Do not defile yourselves in ANY of these ways, because this is how the NATIONS that I am going to drive out before you became DEFILED. Even the land was defiled; so I PUNISHED it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these DETESTABLE things, for ALL these things were done by the people who lived in the land BEFORE you (meaning non Jews), and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the DETESTABLE customs that were practiced before you came and DO NOT defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.
Lev 18:24-30

This is separate from other clean and unclean ceremonial laws. God judged NON Jews for these sins. so this is NOT a matter of Law vs Grace.
so, if God hated it then, and he destroyed NON JEWS for it what makes you think He finds it acceptable now?

i would love to further discuss this issue with anyone who is willing to have an educated civil discussion and exchange of ideas and positions. if you just want to rant and rave and call me names i have no time for you. you can email me at YeshuaEloki@hotmail.com


Dec 26, 2011
Response to Kevin S - 26 July 11
by: larry

i just wanted to correct a MAJOR wrong statement made by one of the commenters. he said that the first english translation was the king james version in 1611 which is so wrong i am actually shocked the mediator did not correct him. the first english translation was actually by john wycliffe in the 1380's. here is a simple link to learn a little about where we got our English translation.


Dec 26, 2011
Time to educate yourself Larry
by: Rick Brentlinger

Larry, I notice you did not address anything I wrote in my post. Instead of obeying 2 Timothy 2:15 and studying the scriptures, you contented yourself with parroting the same false information so many others give.

If I didn't have 650 pages of information on this website, which answer your false information, I could understand why you might remain confused. Yet I DO have 650 pages of high-quality factually correct Biblically accurate info on this website. I hope at some point you will discard the idea that you already know it all so you can obey 2 Tim 2:15 and resume your Bible study.

Concerning your false information: To make the case for homosexuality, we begin by demonstrating that complementarianism, your false teaching that God will only bless a one man with one woman for life marriage, is Biblically false. I did that in the post which you apparently did not read.

We also do that by showing that polygamy in the Bible, one man with more than one woman, is accepted and blessed by God. Did you bother to look up the verses I cited above? Everything you believe about heterosexual marriage and homosexuality flows from your erroneous views about Adam and Eve.

Oddly enough, you only apply your method of interpreting scripture to gay people. You don't use that method of interpretation where it affects your life. You don't apply that method of interpreting scripture to transportation, for example, because if you applied the same logic to transportation, you couldn't drive your car or truck or ride your motorcycle or travel on a bus or an airplane.

The following is my humble attempt to illustrate the absurdity of your hermeneutic by using precisely the same logic you use.

God only affirms a few kinds of transportation in the Bible: walking, riding a donkey, horse or camel, boats or small ships. No other kind of transportation is mentioned in the Bible. Transportation in the Bible is ALWAYS on foot or by four legged animal or by boat.

Do you have any Biblical evidence that God approves of pickup trucks?

Hey, I think I'm getting the hang of your kind of Bible interpretation. This is kinda fun.

Sarcasm: "Hey you! Yeah, the guy getting out of the pickup truck. You're a filthy sinner! Why do you hate God? Why do you rebel against the clear teaching of scripture on transportation? Turn or burn!

Oh no! Are you eating a pulled pork sandwich? Did you have shrimp cocktail with dinner last night? Seriously dude? You are an abomination! That is detestable! How dare you flaunt the clear teaching of Leviticus about not eating pork and shrimp? Get right or get left sucker!" End sarcasm.

If you are seriously interested in understanding Romans 1:26-27 and Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10, please click on the NavBar Links under, What The Bible Says, and begin factoring in context when you read the Bible, 2 Timothy 2:15. Many thanks Larry.

Dec 26, 2011
RE: Larry's correction of my statements of July 26th
by: Kevin S.

Larry, my contextual intent was to refer to the earliest BIBLE translation which was printed in English. Rick will correct my comment to reflect that that was the Coverdale Bible, 1535. Thank you brother.

Dec 27, 2011
Post about the first English Bible to be printed now corrected
by: Rick Brentlinger

Larry, thanks for pointing out that there were English Bibles before the King James Version. Kevin and I both know that and yet we both got it wrong.

The 1384 Wycliffe Bible was hand-written because the printing press had not been invented when Wycliffe did his translation.

I've edited Kevin's earlier comment to reflect that the first complete Bible to be printed in the English language was the Coverdale Bible in 1535.

I appreciate the heads up on my sloppy editing. I approved that comment from an Internet cafe while on vacation in California without reading it carefully enough.

Jan 23, 2012
What 1 Cor 1-9 Really Says
by: Eric T

Nowhere in this scripture appears the word companion. You are misquoting

1 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Jan 24, 2012
sorry it took so long
by: larry

I have followed 2 Tim 2:15 and I am properly reading and interpreting scripture. Yes, you have 650 pages full of your attempts to prove your position to be true. Muslims have thousands of pages doing the same thing, Mormons as well, wiccans too. You name the group, there is a website that supports their cause. I made my case very clear. The bible does not support homosexual activity. You are digging, twisting, turning and stretching every little thing you can to attempt to support your personal desires.

You said that I am a complementarian, well, while I personally believe this to be true based on the words of Jesus, I admitted to you that based on the information you provided, it is POSSIBLE that God is ok with polygamy. But regardless, it is still heterosexual. U did NOT make the case for homosexual relationships.

But, even with that, Jesus also made it clear that certain things were over looked or allowed because the hardness of mens hearts, God hates divorce yet he allowed it in the law. Polygamous kings could very well be in the same category. What we do see it that polygamous relationships in the bible always produced strife and problems. Just b/c God makes something good come out of a problem does not mean it was a good thing. Jesus came from the off spring of Davids adulterous relationship with Bathshiba, are you going to say that God blesses adultery now?

Ur attempt to say that this is similar to our views on transportation is not real exegesis my friend. You have created a false dichotomy. Scripture is clear on what the purpose of sex is and the purpose of marriage. There is no purpose for transportation other than reaching a physical destination. Sex is spiritual. So, its not the same thing and u r misapplying the logic. If God had said that you should ONLY ride a donkey or ONLY walk or if he would have said that if you travel on anything other than a equine that you are committing a detestable act, THEN you could make this case.


One thing u failed to mention about lev 18:22 is the word H2145 זָכָר zakar means male, not prostitute. If homosexuality is only wrong if ur having sex with a prostitute, then is child sacrifice only wrong if you sacrifice it to Molech? Is bestiality only wrong if you do it in some sort of shrine way? If you discount homosexuality, then you MUST discount child sacrifice to any god other than Molech and bestiality.

Jan 24, 2012
Exceptions prove that complementarianism is not absolute
by: Rick Brentlinger

The point of bringing up polygamy is that it disproves absolute complementarianism. Your one man with one woman belief system can only stand if complementarianism is absolute. By citing God's blessing on polygamy, I have proven that complementarianism is not absolute.

On transportation, if you think it through, my example of transportation is precisely the logic you employ. The Bible doesn't limit us to only using the kinds of transportation mentioned in the Bible. Likewise, the Bible doesn't say that the only acceptable marriage is between a man and a woman. You add that into the text because the text doesn't say it.

Concerning child sacrifice being okay as long as you're not sacrificing your child to Molech, No, that is the wrong conclusion. I give nine thoughtful answers to that illogical argument on the Beastiality page.

Jan 25, 2012
...a sealed mind....
by: Paul

still with the hope of change, i believe Ricks mind is sealed with his numerous self "twisted" analogies concerning Polugamy and worst of all homosexuality

i realy side with larry....u see Acts 17:30...says God overlooked many things (which includes polygamy) ....but now commands us to REPENT......

the fact that God allowed certain evil things because of the ignorance of the people by then does not make it right....
i hv exhausted all my view in my ealier comments and will not say much...

I pray God reveal unto you the truth about this,stay bless

Feb 08, 2012
ur missing something
by: Larry

Editor's Note: I cannot cure your desire to keep repeating false information. Homosexuality is not specifically condemned, as you alleged, unless you take verses out of context and then make your argument from out of context verses.

Larry writes: ur transportation analogy is fundamentally flawed because God never forbids car travel. God DOES forbid homosexuality. the bible does not specifically say "you shall only have one wife" but Jesus makes reference to "the beginning" when talking about divorce. a proper assumption to make (since we are both making assumptions) is that marriage is to be between ONE man and ONE woman since thats how it was IN THE BEGINNING. Does God forbid polygamy? no. is it what he wants? i would say no based on what Jesus says about divorce and the beginning. so, on the matter of polygamy, we would be at a stalemate if u will. we look at all the destruction and hurt that resulted from polygamous relationships in the bible. but its not specifically condemned. in the NEW TESTAMENT we see that bishops and decons for example are to only have one wife. this to me implies the monogamous relationship to be superior. maybe its a cultural thing in which we have liberty? idk.

but as for homosexuality, it is specifically condemned. the words used are
"male dont lie with male like female for sex disgusting thing he is" there is a word for prostitute, its not used. the verses bout child sacrifice specifically mention a specific God. using your exegesis, the context is clearly specifically saying dont sacrifice ur children to molech. u ignore this direct context and posit ur personal context when there is none given! lol homosexual sex is condemned. all of it. weather its consensual or weather its in a temple its condemned.

all ur 9 thoughts on bestiality rest on the false premise that homosexuality is a normal natural life style. this is not proven and according to God its sinful. so, w/o this premise, ur entire argument is w/o foundation...

Feb 14, 2012
please respond
by: amy

To the author of the most recent entry, did you really use the acronym lol? Are you so amused at what you clearly see as your superiority on the issue that you transparently present yourself not unlike a playground bully? Are you say, 20 years old and too young and immature to have some insight regarding yourself and /or self-control? Or are you a grown man? How sad.

I would love to see a response to your recent argument (from the author of this website); however it really must take the patience of Job to take the time to respond to someone with your attitude. It's not deserving of a response.

Editor's Note: My responses to the topics Larry mentions are on the NavBar under, What The Bible Says. Unfortunately, many anti-gay folks are just too lazy to read, study and learn the truth.

Feb 26, 2012
This website conclusively refutes your points
by: larry

mr "editor" I find it interesting that you call me ignorant, yet you do not refute a single point I made. calling me a name does not make you right. I have pointed out that homosexuality is specifically condemned.

Rick's answer: You made that assertion but you didn't cite any verses which, in context, support your assertion.

u cannot deny that. if you use your exegesis that its only temple prostitution, then you have to say that only child sacrifice to molech is wrong and bestiality is only wrong in temple prostitution. you are not willing to admit that because u know that you are wrong. you cant have it both ways. if its only for temple prostitution, then child sacrifice and bestiality are only wrong when conducted in temple worship.

Rick's answer: Larry, I answer that false argument on the Beastiality page.

i also find it interesting that you edited and reduced my response. you have a page where u mock christian people talking about the "slippery slope" towards bestiality yet i sent you secular proof that its a problem in Europe and you left it off of my comment. replacing it instead with "...". please, have intellectual integrity and do not alter my responses. i am not using foul or hateful language. i will re post the link.

Rick's answer: Larry, I do not allow people to post Links to false and perverse teaching on this website. That is why I have twice removed Links you attempted to post.

Feb 26, 2012
to amy
by: larry

do you have anything that you would like to refute from my argument or is the fact that i am light-hearted and said "lol" the only problem you have with me? do i have to be angry when i respond? can i not be in a good mood and be joyful? im sorry if i am not spewing vitriolic nonsense that is easy to dismiss. but thats not my style. i like facts and i do my best to present the truth in love, not hate.

Rick's answer: Larry, you presented no facts. You simply restated your opinion unsupported by facts. We've rejected your opinion precisely because it is unsupported by facts.

Mar 01, 2012
response to Larry
by: amy

Larry:

I have nothing to say to your "argument", no. I think it was clear what my issue was.

I am thankful we all have the freedom to express our thoughts, etc. It does not make me less sad when it's clear that there is such anger, and hostility at the root. I have to wonder why?

Larry: You did not use the acronym "lol" in a lighthearted, or joyful, manner as you suggest. That is quite obvious. Speak the truth dude. Examine your own heart. And when you're wrong admit you're wrong. Anything less is just.... yucky. - amy


May 09, 2012
Coming from a Christian woman in a relationship with a woman
by: Sonjee

Yes, I am a saved woman in a same sex relationship. Now what I cannot and will not refute is that anything that differs from man before the fall is sinful! Yes me being in a relationship with a woman is sinful

Rick's comment: Just for the record, I don't believe that scripture supports the view you've expressed, that being in a relationship with a woman is sinful.

but oh how wonderful that I have one who justified me on the cross! No my father will not tolerate ANY of my sins but glory to the father he sent me a mediator that intercedes and precedes me. He petitions the father on my behalf and makes me righteous. Let's not act as if we are not sinner, that's not true. We are sinners saved by grace.

Now no sin can enter into the kingdom of God hence the reason we must all die in this flesh body! My flesh is fallen and that is the reason for my desire for the woman.

Rick's comment:That is what the anti-gay crowd teaches but it is not what the Bible says.

Others flesh is fallen hence the reason for their lying or lusting after things of the flesh. We all sin everyday but if we confess our sins he's faithful and just to forgive, isn't he a good God! If it's wrong it's wrong I will not try and make it right but there is no need because on the cross Jesus died for my sins. Thank you Jesus.

Let us rejoice in the knowledge that he have a comforter! Now sin does not stop my salvation in Jesus BUT it hinders our walk with Christ if we do not confess them. So remember, confess your sins everyday and ask him to wash you with the blood to make you clean and righteous and he will do just that. HE is able to present you faultless. This has nothing to do with what you do or don't do in the flesh but what he Did on the cross!!!

Confess your sins right now, accept the cleansing blood of the Lamb and give God the praise. It's what I do daily. I love all of my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus! Let's stop fighting each other and contend for the faith.

Rick's comment: Thanks Sonjee, for commenting. I hope you'll make use of our FREE Bible studies in your life and ministry.

May 09, 2012
Were - 1 Cor 6:9
by: Gene

And such were some of you...

Rick's comment: Quoting part of 1 Cor 6:9 does not add much to the conversation. You seem to assume that it's talking about homosexuals when it is not.

If you are interested in truth, please take the time to get familiar with the context and the meaning of 1 Cor 6:9. Here's a good place to start. Arsenokoites in 1 Cor 6:9.



May 10, 2012
Jesus and marriage
by: Alberto Hernandez

Jesus was commenting on the PRACTICE of marriage as it was carried out in the Jewish community at the time, period. He was not defining the term as you say in your comment. Your remark is not good analysis of the text, not convincing.

May 15, 2012
also
by: Anonymous

And the latest trend is to call anyone a hater when they disagree with homosexuality, on this I call b---sh-t, I dont hate you, if I did I would let you sin without trying to bring you back to God that way I would know you would burn in hell, but thats not what I want, cause I DONT hate you.

The bible does say not to judge, thats right , point taken , now do you even know what judging means? versus rebuking? The bible DOES say to gently rebuke your neighbor, it DOES say to spread the gospel and teach God's laws.

Rick's comment: You may be interested in reading: Are Christians supposed to judge.

May 15, 2012
If homosex was okay, it would be mentioned in the Bible
by: Anonymous

Another fact to keep in mind: When the bible refers to a marriage between 2 poeple, it pretty much always mentions a wife and a husband, if it was only one instance you might be right, but so many instances out of many different books by different authors over the span of thousands of years, I think if homosexuality was ok, there would be as many couples mentionned in the bible as being 2 women or 2 men.

As for the idea that some have taht any sin is ok because Jesus redeems us, he redeems those who repent not those who persist in sinful practices.

Rick's comment: Okay, I think I'm starting to understand now. Because the Bible only mentions transportation by foot, by boat or by horses, mules and camels, it would be sinful for any of us to travel by motorcycle or truck or trains planes and automobiles?

If other methods of travel were okay, there would be as many other kinds of transportation mentioned in the Bible but there are not and that proves how sinful it is to use other kinds of transportation. Got it - thanks for helping me understand.

May 16, 2012
enough already
by: amy

Virtually every uninformed critic on this site goes by "anonymous."

If you have something to say it is welcomed. If you don't have the courage to type your first name can you please re-examine yourself?

How silly - If I were needing to be "saved" by you, or gently persuaded, do you really believe that would happen when you don't have the simple courtesy and/or courage to be someone other than anonymous?

It would be laughable were it not so tragic.

May 16, 2012
another fact to keep in mind
by: amy

To Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. anonymous-

You are pointing out that Jesus redeems those who repent but who "don't persist in sinful practices." Fascinating. I wonder if we live close to each other because I would so like to know you and get to be friends with you (sarcasm).

I have yet to meet a person who is sin free! I'm so happy to finally know of a person who is completely righteous like yourself. I know the Bible says there is no one righteous not one, but you are the exception then. How exciting! (sarcasm).

Unfortunately for me, I need a savior I'm sorry to tell you. No matter how much I repent I am still aware I have the heart of a prostitute and a criminal. So I need Jesus. How wonderful it would be to repent and be sin free like you. Wish we could chat.

May 17, 2012
Get your own Country
by: Anonymous

To all those who disagree with marriage between homosexuals, I'll say, I follow my own religion, so stop trying to make constitutional laws against it. Freedom of religion, come on. And what I'm asking doesn't hurt anyone. If it hurts you, sue me. My religion supports and allows marriage between homosexuals, just like 15+ other countries which provide and abide by marriage to homosexuals.

What? Do you expect us to be celibate, and all the gay animals too? Not happening is it? America the Beautiful was written by lesbian Katherine Lee Bates. Take a look at your life, your accomplishments with your partner, and deny that to someone else, who is better than you, more deserving, but also an engineer, and gay.

Go ahead and let murderers and rapists marry, but god forbid homosexuals get married. Come on, focus on your own morals and stop trying to knock our attempts at ours down. We do the exact same things you do, but we're just gay...

Jun 14, 2012
The Bible is like Jack and the Beanstalk
by: Anonymous

You guys are so dumb, seriously. To believe in the Bible is equivalent to believing that Jack & the Beanstalk is a true story. How can you guys seriously live your life according to some book that you don't even know who it was written by and if these people were actually sane?

It amazes me the amount of hate Christians have against homosexuals. Seeing them protesting with signs that say "God hates fags". Seriously? I thought God preached love and forgiveness?

I just don't understand how you all can live your life preaching something you don't even know is true.

Rick's Comment: I also marvel at the hatred some Christians have for gays. I also marvel at the hatred some folks have for the Bible. Most of the professing atheists I know have never read the Bible. They reject the truth claims of a book they've never read.

Seriously? That isn't intelligent or scientific.

Jun 26, 2012
Is marriage a religious or secular ceremony?
by: JC

Interpreting scripture always seems to end up in a mess of opinions, the one as immovable in its righteousness as the next.

The Holy Bible was a book written by men. It reflects their opinions and their beliefs. If indeed God is the author of anything, he is the author of the commandments. Everything else is apocryphal.

Rick's comment: No dear. The view you've expressed is liberal unbelief. The Bible makes the opposite claim for itself, that it comes from God as ultimate Author and that every word is God's truth: Psalm 12:6-7, 119:160, Proverbs 30:5, 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

As to the Christians who scream blue murder at the idea of two men marrying: This is a secular issue, not religious. If you don't want them to marry as you are allowed to marry then just pressure your priests and pastors not to conduct such services at your churches. A civil marriage is a matter of civil law NOT of religion.

How you Americans can even vote on something that is supposed to be upheld in your constitution is beyond me. You might then start voting at making any other kind of religious marriage illegal.

Jul 01, 2012
Ricks letters in red
by: Yvonne

"....Every word is Gods truth." Unless, that is you are the only one who knows what God REALLY meant when the truth was written and refuse to actually believe the words in His Truth. It is very clear that you have denied every intelligent argument and scripture quoted straight from Gods truth against the act of homosexuality. Instead, you direct people out the Bible itself, to links of articles and such. You refuse to accept that someone can love the person but not the behavior.

Obviously (after spending a good deal of time reading every entry here) you have come to believe that you are correct and the Bible is wrong, which is very concerning, so how you can write that last part about every word being Gods truth is just another clue that You are blinded by the enemy and can no longer see or be open to the truth. So great is your desire to be accepted.

Well, it's okay. God loves all and wishes that none perish, however, there is no denying scripture. It is just that, Gods truth, and the basis of a Christians faith and it has been clearly been presented to you (yet refused) over and over here.

Rick's comment: Yet you present no verses which in context say what you think they mean.

All that is left us to pray that God will reveal His truth to you eventually and that you well get out if your own way and let His truth be the truth, not yours. As I expect, and like the others who quote directly from the Bible before me, my belief in Gods word as Truth will be struck down and I will be called ignorant because I choose to believe the Bible, rather than you.

Rick's comment: No Yvonne, you believe your interpretation of verses you and your pastors have ripped out of context.

I do not judge you as a homosexual, rather, I am disturbed by your outright denial of the scripture to so many. Blessings to you, brother and may you find in God the truth you so desperately seek.

Rick's comment: And yet I've never denied the scripture. Instead, I've reminded everyone that we must read scripture in context. I'm sorry you are so confused. Why is it so difficult for you to grasp that simple concept? Ripping verses out of context and insisting they blast gays when they don't mean that in context is dishonest.

Jul 02, 2012
Thanks Yvonne!!
by: amy

for not only being willing to comment but being willing to assign your name to your comment. Also for you loving attitude. I am gay and can't change that (that is, I can't change my intrinsic nature but I can control my choices; I wanted to add that before anyone might feel so compelled to add an angry comment) but I rarely see the love of Jesus in anyone and saw it in your comment today. That is really beautiful. Thanks!!

Jul 02, 2012
after thought to Yvonnne
by: amy

Hi Yvonne:

While I appreciated your comment, when I re-read it I noticed that you said Rick calls people ignorant. I haven't seen any evidence of that.

What I have seen is that he claims to put the same value on scripture that I gather you do (from your comment) but is making a case for understanding scripture in context.

I think this is an extremely valid point because if we are honest as a group of human christians (key word honest) I think we can agree we take things out of context to suit our own purposes on a regular basis, including in the Bible.

Rick's comment: Just for the record, I have called some commenters ignorant and will continue to do so. There is no excuse for willful ignorance on the gay issue.

The way to avoid willful ignorance is to:

1. Cultivate the skill of critical thinking.

2. Use your God-given common sense by exercising spiritual discernment when someone takes verses out of context to "prove" their point.

3. Spiritual Christians reject viewpoints which are based on ripping verses out of context.

4. Always interpret scripture in context. All scripture has a cultural, doctrinal, historical, linguistic, literary and religious context.

5. Constantly remind yourself that if the Biblical text was not addressing homosexuality in ancient times, then the Biblical text is not addressing homosexuality today.

Jul 02, 2012
missed that
by: amy

hey, my bad. I guess I never ran across the ignorant part. Either way, the word ignorant is simply a word used to describe a lack of information. I guess I honestly don't find that to be a put down. I recognize that I am ignorant on many issues. To rectify that, I have to get informed if it is important to do so.


Jul 15, 2012
Believing a lie
by: Anonymous

2 Thessalonians 2:10 - and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. NIV

Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Rick's comment: Is it too much to ask that you ignorant commenters try to keep your scripture quotations in context? Do any of you have honor? Does integrity figure into your lives at all?

Quoting those verses at gays as though the context of those verses is gay people is beyond dumb. I'm just sayin...

And you haven't the guts to use your real name with your mean comments. How sadly typical of you.

Jul 28, 2012
Interpretation of scripture
by: Richard

My heart goes out to the plight of homosexuals. It happened to the African Americans and women and now people of same sex orientation. All share in an effort to prevent others from living their lives to the fullest. It is all done with biblical interpretation, and particulalry with select scripture passages pulled out of context. The obstructionists of course claim God to be on their side because they think they are proclaiming his Word. For their information God's Word is Jesus and Jesus is love. It makes me wonder how anyone could think that Jesus would ever be opposed to people engaging in loving and committed relationships whether they are of the same sex or the opposite. By the way I am heterosexual. As for you folks of homosexual orientation, I think you should be greatly rewarded for your patience with the rest of us. Hang in there. We should appreciate what many of you contribute to our society because of your uniqeness. God bless you!

Jul 30, 2012
love you guys
by: Anonymous

I'm not a Christian, nor am I LGBTQ.

I stumbled on this site to find arguments in favor of gay marriage here. I found what I was looking for and I thank you for your help. :) The African American rights battle was my parents' fight and the LGBTQ is my fight.

Just to let you know, I love you guys and you are always welcome in my heart and home. Still fighting! Check out the following on FB, if you haven't already: Wipeout Homophobia on Facebook, Unicorn Booty (...decidedly NSFW), Human Rights Campaign and Gay Marriage USA.

Good luck and fight the good fight!

Rick's comment: Your love and support are much appreciated! Thanks for stopping by.

Jul 31, 2012
My thoughts
by: SonjeeComing

Wow, I must say that I desire, more than anything, TRUTH. Now the truth of the matter is I have accepted that god did not make me love women no more than he made Adam a sinful man. This all came after the fall. Me being a woman loving women happened because of sin, period. He still loves me, I'm still saved but I refuse to call him a liar by saying that this was his desire. No. His desire was for me to join with a man but SIN because of the fall corrupted everything. Now let's stop. Let ask god to help us be lovers of truth. My desire for women was not his design. A man lusting after every woman was not his design. A woman and man sleeping around was not his design but god gave us Jesus! He saved us. So I am a sinner saved by grace!

Rick's comment: Thanks Sonjee for your insights. We disagree that being gay or lesbian is a result of the fall of Adam. We also disagree that it is sinful to be in a gay or lesbian relationship. You may want to read and study the material on this website - more than 650 pages - so that you will know our counter-arguments for the points you've made. Many thanks.

Aug 09, 2012
Thank You
by: Joseph

Rick, Thank you very much for your the work that are doing; you have undertaken a very difficult task. I have found that it is nearly impossible to argue with people whose only knowlege of the scriptures is what they have been told to believe. I have been told by some that they do not have to read the Bible because they already know what it says.

My 'pastor' stated last Fall that "the sin of homosexuality is right up there with murder, rape, and pedophilia." That is all that the nodding Roman Catholics needed to hear. We get to read and hear letters from our Archbishop that our freedom of religion is being attacked. Our Archdiocese is a founding member of the Maryland Marriage Alliance, the organization which got the issue of marriage equality put on the ballot this coming November.

Needless to say, it has become painful for me to even go to church. You have given me hope that, maybe someday, Christianity will shed its irrational fear of poeple who are not straight. Thank you for being a peacemaker; you are blessed.

Rick's comment: Thanks Joseph, for your kind and thoughtful comments. It is not easy to change hearts and minds. Our task is to live for the Lord as His faithful Biblical disciples, regardless of what others say about us. The Holy Spirit will help us honor our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Aug 09, 2012
same sax marriage cannot be justified in the scripture
by: Anonymous

Do you take it literally that the man and a woman when they marry shall become one? Each losing his/her own individuality even in the promise of judgement where everyone will stand to be judged?

Rick's comment: Yes, Genesis, Jesus and Paul tell us that the two shall be one. That indicates that a marriage is not a civil or religious ceremony but instead, is the one flesh union of two people. For heterosexuals, the one flesh union is between a man and a woman. For homosexuals, the one flesh union is between two men or two women.

No, people who get married do not lose their individuality. They retain their unique qualities.

Yes, we will all stand at the judgment. Saved people will be at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Unsaved people will be at the Great White Throne Judgment as described in Revelation 20. Hope this is helpful to you.

Aug 15, 2012
there is no argument
by: A Father

The sin of Sodom and Gomorah was what became stated as sodomy sexual sin. I have read most of your materials but the most ridiculous argument is that of your attempt to address the definition of eunechs as was described by Jesus in the book of Matthew. You are the victim of what you have proposed concerning reading scripture in context. In chapter 19 Jesus is addressing divorce he clearly is addressing natural eunechs as those born that way, not homosexuals. Born that way meaning without the ability to perform sexually or procreate. There is no special status for homosexuals. The practice whether as male prostitutes or otherwise is simply described as a sin. Many say people are born that way. To that assertion I do not know. As some are born more prone to addiction, some with severe disabilities, some blind, some as eunechs without the ability of sexual function, only Jesus can help you cope with your condition through a relationship eternal in scope. The relationship with Christ can surpass any earthly relationship between man and woman and it is to him that those with homosexual thoughts should invest their concern. This is the eunech mentioned by Christ that made themselves as such for the Kingdom. I feel for the desires of one antagonized with homosexual thoughts, It has got to be difficult especially for younger individuals but that doesnt take away from the fact of acting on those emotions is sin. You can't reinvent the wheel. Marriage is between a man and a woman. I do agree with your comments and examples of polygamy but unfortunately that doesn't help your argument. All polygamous relationships were between a man with more than one wife, not other men.

Rick's comment: May I humbly encourage you to reread my eunuchs pages? Even the leading anti-gay evangelical Christian scholar, Dr. Robert Gagnon, agrees that the group Jesus describes as born eunuchs DID include homosexuals.

A Father comments: My own son a mere teenager has been overtaken with these thoughts and I have seen first hand how it impacts his ability to function. I have taken him out of school to simply cope with living. It has taken over every aspect of his thought processes. He is a christian and struggles daily. He sent me to your website, as he is attempting to validate his thoughts. Unfortunately this website has misguided him and has led himin the wrong direction.

Rick's comment: My heart goes out to you and your wife and your wonderful son. Most of all at this difficult time, your son needs to know that his father and mother love him unconditionally.

A Father's comment: I will pray that you come to the realization it is sin. Though dificult to manage as the flesh is so vulnerable, a committment to Christ and a cellabate lifestyle is the answer.

Aug 17, 2012
Re: Lisa Miller
by: Anonymous

Really, you are so stuck in your ways you cannot see another's point of view. That is tacky and wrong. Apparently you are the one that is capable of judging, not god, or did he appoint you to this task. Are you so misinformed that you believe everything that has been told to you? Welcome to 2012. New times call for new attitudes.

Aug 18, 2012
Response
by: Rachel

I think you make a very good point when you say that we as christians need to spend more time worrying about the divorce epidemic in our own churches. As I have been studying what the bible says about marriage I have come to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10,

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterer, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God"

I think we as the church tend to point out homosexuality and say that it is worse than any other sin. However, if you look at this passage there are many other sins that will destroy your life just as easily. Idolatry? Thievery? Greediness? Slander? I have been guilty of each of these. So I will not sit here and point out the sins of "homosexual offenders" because I have just as much evil sin in my own life. However, this passage does show that choosing to be a homosexual offender is a sin in God's eyes. I will not cast the blame, because my own life is not right. I will leave it to God to convict each of us in our own sin.

Rick's comment: Interesting points. I gently remind you that the NIV translation, homosexual offenders, is WAY off the mark. The Greek words malakoi and arsenokoitai were NEVER used with the meaning homosexual in the first century, when Paul used those words in 1 Cor 6:9.

I hope you'll take time to check the NavBar under, What The Bible Says, and read the latest info on 1 Cor 6:9. Many thanks!

Aug 21, 2012
Gays will not see heaven unless they repent.
by: Anonymous

Paul clearly states that gays will never see heaven many times. Stop trying to manipulate a holy book to become unholy. I have not personal ax to grind with gays but that is what is stated.

Rick's comment: Did it ever occur to you that the NIV is incorrectly translated in 1 Cor 6:9? The word homosexual should not be in any Bible.

If you're interested in truth about these issues, I present a lot of information to support what I teach on this website. Click on any NavBar link under, What The Bible Says.

Best wishes as you obey 2 Tim 2:15 and continue to explore these issues.

Aug 30, 2012
Jesus didn't have to say it
by: Daniel

There are New Testament scriptures condemning homosexuality. Romans 1:26-27 is very clear. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it uses the Greek term arsenokoitai which means sodomite.

Rick's comment: Hi Daniel - thanks for stopping by. If you'll click on the NavBar under arsenokoites and malakoi and Romans 1:26-27, you will be delighted to discover that you are wrong. I say delighted because I believe you are an honest Christian who is man enough to admit when he gets it wrong.

Daniel's comment: This of course, could refer to heterosexual sodomy which would be equally sinful. I am sorry that there is so much hatred directed at you guys and girls. It's not what Jesus wants of His followers, I know that. I also know that homosexuality not your choice for most of you.

Although I don't think it's genetic either, especially since there is no scientific proof of it, which by now would've been discovered. I think it's something that develops in a child or teenager due to circumstances and choices made such as sexual abuse or pornography (just two examples, not the only ones). The question you have to ask yourself is if you believe the epistles to be the Word of God. If so, then you have to accept that sodomy is a sin by reading the 1 Corinthians passage and that homosexuality is a sin by the Romans passage.

If you want to deny the validity of the epistles, then you can continue with arguing over the semantics of what Jesus said. But deep down you have to know that this isn't what God intended for us. Blessing and peace to you, brother. May God guide you as you walk with Him. - Daniel

Rick's comment: You may have us confused with some liberal gay Christians who deny the inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible. We affirm those truths and accept the historicity, canonicity and veracity of the epistles. For more info on that, please click on, What We Believe, on the Navbar.

Thanks for adding your comments Daniel. I hope we can be a blessing to you in your spiritual walk as you grow in grace and knowledge of our wonderful Lord and all-sufficient Savior, Jesus Christ.

Sep 04, 2012
If so, how can you claim it's not a sin?
by: Daniel

If you agree that the epistles are God breathed then how can you claim that homosexuality isn't sinful? I think Paul makes it clear that it is a sin. It seems that there is some intellectual dissonance going on here.

Rick's comment: Hi Daniel. May I point out that as nice a guy as you must be, it appears to me you have not studied this issue. Your opinion that the Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin or that I am misrepresenting the epistles holds no water. You have not presented any facts, you have not presented any proof and you have not interacted with the detailed information I've presented which contradicts your views.

For example, I list on this website the first 56 uses of the arsenokoit stem in extant Greek literature. None of those citations uses the arsenokoit stem to mean homosexual.

Daniel's comment: You can't believe that both the epistles are God breathed and inerrant in message AND that homosexuality isn't a sin. They're diametrically opposed.

Rick's comment: Again Daniel, you need to read and study this issue. I say it with love but you simply don't know what you're talking about on this issue.

Daniel's comment: You only have a few choices. You can say that Paul was wrong and therefore the epistles are not God breathed /inerrant, or you can misinterpret those verses and say they mean something different from what they obviously say, or you have to admit homosexuality is sinful. There is no way around it.

Thank you for your response. Have a great day!

Rick's comment: As I see it, your choices are to continue to claim others are misinterpreting these verses because you haven't bothered to study the issue OR you can obey 2 Timothy 2:15 and study to shew yourself approved unto God. That includes interpreting the Bible in context. God bless you Daniel.

Sep 05, 2012
My apologies
by: Daniel

I did not see at least half of your argument because I thought your whole response was the last part of it. The first half of it blended in with my previous comment. Now that I see your argument in totality, I will look further into it and respond accordingly after I've come to a conclusion. It was not my intention to ignore what you've said, I thought you were ignoring the points that I made but I see now it was a simple misunderstanding.

Sep 05, 2012
For the record...
by: Daniel

I never said that arsenokoitai meant homosexual. I'm aware that there is no Greek word for homosexual. I said it means 'sodomite' (also interpreted as 'effeminate'). Sodomy is the sin referred to here and that could be heterosexual as well. However effeminate could refer to men who used young call boys for sex.

Just wanted to make that clear. Seeing how it's rather late, I'm going to continue this another time.

Rick's comment: The word sodomite, as used in the Bible, never means homosexual. I go into quite a bit of detail about sodomites on this page and provide a Biblical definition of the word.

http://www.gaychristian101.com/sodomites.html

Sep 23, 2012
Homosexuality is shameful to God
by: Ellis

If you read Romans 1: 26-27 it clearly states that it is natural that Man marry Woman, that God does not like homosexuality and that it is shameful. I myself have no problems with gay people, it is up to God to judge but if your going to study a subject you need to study it entirely.

Rick's comment: I hope you will read my Romans pages AND Romans chapter 1 in the King James Bible. It does not say what you think it says. I encourage you to read and reread it until it sinks into your heart. Many thanks.

Sep 24, 2012
I'm not seeing it, Rick.
by: Daniel

I read the Romans passage in context again, and I still can't see anything other than it talking about women having sex with women and men having sex with men. It seems to me that you're reading a presupposition you hold into the text instead of letting the text speak for itself. Here are the verses within the necessary literal context:

"24 So God let them go. He allowed them to do what their sinful hearts wanted to. He let them commit sexual sins. They polluted one another’s bodies by what they did.

25 They chose a lie instead of God’s truth. They worshiped and served created things. They didn’t worship the Creator. But he must be praised forever. Amen.

26 So God let them go. They were filled with shameful LONGINGS. Their women committed SEXUAL acts that were not natural. 27 In the same way, the men TURNED AWAY from their natural LOVE FOR WOMEN. They burned with SEXUAL longing for each other. Men did shameful things with other men. They suffered in their bodies for all the twisted things they did." (this is the ESV translation which is far more accurate than the King James since it is a more literal translation and wasn't decreed by a king with alternative motives for the scriptures)

I'm sorry, but that can only mean one thing. You can think up all the alternative ways of skewing the meaning of it, but anyone reading that with the intent to find the truth of the passage would come to the conclusion that it's referring to same sex intercourse or other sexual acts. The 1 Corinthians passage is arguable, but this is very clear. It patently states that homosexual acts are unnatural and shameful. I don't know how much clearer it could possibly be. I think it's clear that I am obeying 2 Timothy 2:15. Just because I disagree with you about a passage doesn't mean I'm disobedient. Perhaps you should look into what Jesus says about judging others. I hope this shows you that my argument isn't unsubstantiated. In fact, most biblical scholars hold this view. Are you saying that most of those men and women who have devoted their lives to studying Bible and hold a view contrary to yours are not obeying 2 Timothy 2:15?

Rick's comment: What you are doing is called anachronism, reading into the text your modern views instead of letting the text speak as a first century document. No way did Paul swerve from his argument about Gentile idolatry to condemn lesbians and gays.

The sexual activity Paul describes is linked to idolatry, otherwise Paul's argument makes no sense. Please read it again and also, look at my Romans page. Even anti-gay commentators agree with me about the context. Many thanks.

Sep 25, 2012
in reference to Daniel's comments
by: amy

Rick: I also have a question regarding this current discussion. I understand the idolatry link. What bothers me about the above mentioned passages (and these are the ones that bother me by far more than any other biblical reference to same sex) is the Bible making such an effort to refer to same sex the way it does. That is, the fact that the Bible says women and men are exchanging what is natural for what is unnatural. The point is strongly made. As I have been studying your site, what I have gotten from all of this is that idolatry is bad and so is same sex sex. That is what I take from it. The fact that the same sex behavior and idolatry are linked, doesn't dissuade from the fact that same sex is pointed out as unnatural and not supported. I don't see how to get around the emphasis, biblically, on unnatural and exchanging what is natural, etc.

Rick's comment:

Hi Amy- I think you and Daniel are reading into Romans 1 an aversion to same sex love which is not in that chapter. It would be like interpreting Genesis 34, where the heterosexual rape of Dinah is recorded, that all heterosexual sex is wrong.

In my opinion, you've allowed the out of context indoctrination of the anti-gay crowd to rule your thinking instead of rightly dividing the word of truth. I hope you will continue to read and study because our loving Lord has a lot more grace and mercy for His GLBT children than you're giving Him credit for. Hope this is helpful.

Sep 25, 2012
I disagree.
by: Daniel

In verse 25 it says they chose idolatry and lies over their Creator and then finishes the talk about idolatry with "Amen.". In verse 26, he says "SO God let them go." meaning that because of their choice to serve false gods, God gave them up to their fleshly lusts. Homosexuality was a result of their idolatry, so it fits perfectly with the context of Paul talking about idolatry. I am not denying the fact that it starts out referring to idolatry. If the sexual acts had something to do with idolatry, why don't verses 26 and 27 say anything about idols, worship, or religious practices? I would submit that verse 24 is in relation to idolatry and sexual sins to honor false gods. But 26 clearly refers to homosexuality resulting from idolatry, not sexual acts for idolatry.

Rick's comment: No Daniel, homosexuality is not a result of their idolatry. Sadly, you are misreading the text. I do hope you will continue to read and study. You haven't got it right yet.

Sep 26, 2012
grace
by: amy

Hey Rick:

Thanks for getting back!! I think it's possible (just possible) to believe that God is not in favor of same sex love and sex, and still believe that God does have all of the grace and mercy that you made reference to. I am continuing to read. I just moved, but found your book and have it right here. :) I understand the point you are making. But I don't see a connection between a rape reference and heterosexual relationship. Rape is violent and there is lots of affirming stuff in the Bible about loving, respectful, heterosexual love/sex. What bugs me about the verse that got mentioned and that I was commenting on, is that while there is an idolatry link, the verse talks about giving up what is natural. That seems pretty straightforward, idolatry link or not.

Rick's comment: Congrats on the move. Hope it's a blessing. Natural as used in Romans had a wide range of meaning. Many of the first century meanings of natural are not part of Christian beliefs today.

Paul's argument is about idolatry and he cites examples of Gentile idolatry which by the way, ancient Israel also indulged in. He makes no reference to lesbians, no reference to gay men, no reference to bisexuals, no reference to transgendered individuals in Romans 1.

To believe otherwise is anachronism, reading our 21st century beliefs into a first century document. Romans 1 cannot be divorced from its cultural, historical and religious context. If we divorce it from those three, we come up with the false teaching of the anti-gay crowd.

I believe there is an element of self-loathing in GLBTs who give in to the false teaching of Exodus International and the anti-gay crowd.

We are FREE in Christ, we are under GRACE and God is not angry with us for being gay or enjoying intimate relationships with the partner God brings into our life.

Sep 27, 2012
That's hardly an argument
by: Daniel

You have no argument against my point other than "You misread the text, you got it wrong."?? I could just as easily say the same to you and that would be just as wrong. I have given a reasonable and substantiated argument based on the context and wording of the verses which it seems you are unable to refute or explain away.

I never said God didn't love those who participate in homosexuality, and neither do I question their salvation, as it is not my place to do so. However, I will not secede from the apparent fact that homosexual behavior is sinful. Yes, just as sinful as hatred, envy, greed, etc.; but sinful nonetheless. To say otherwise is to deny clear teachings of scripture.

It was a pleasure discussing this with you, Rick. I wish you all the best. May God bless and keep you.

Daniel

Rick's comment: Hi Daniel - Your argument is answered in my book and on my website. There is no way Paul was blasting lesbian women and gay men in Romans 1. That is not at all his argument. His argument is about idolatry and the sexual behavior he mentions involved temple prostitutes.

You have no scriptural warrant for insisting that Paul also intended to condemn lesbians and gays. As I pointed out to Amy, you are engaging in anachronism, reading your 21st century views into a first century document. I wish you God's best as you walk the path of His purpose for your life.

Sep 28, 2012
You're misunderstanding me
by: Daniel

I'm not saying that Paul's purpose here was to condemn gays. He's just stating a cause and effect. The cause was idol worship and the effect was God releasing them to unnatural lusts for the same sex. You're claiming that I'm making the verses out to focus on homosexuality when I'm most certainly not. It's more like Paul mentioning it as an afterthought. Even so, it's still a valid passage and can really only mean one thing. I'm not engaging in anachronism, this is clear to many biblical scholars who avoid anachronism like the plague. You have the right to disagree, but it seems to me that you're unconsciously reading your bias into the text.

Rick's comment: Hi Daniel. I do not have time to argue in the comments section. You ignored everything I wrote in the post and tried to switch the discussion to Romans 1. You then proceeded to ignore first century culture, history and religion as if they did not exist so that you could argue that Paul was addressing homosexuality. He was not.


Sep 30, 2012
I haven't ignored anything you've said
by: Daniel

I addressed every argument you have presented regarding the Romans passage and I still have found no valid points to explain away the way Paul worded verses 26 and 27. My stance stands in light of cultural, historical, and literal contexts and you have not provided anything other than opinion and false claims to disprove that. You are welcome to no longer partake in the discussion. In fact, it seems that's the only productive choice as it seems that you are unwilling to be open to the fact that you could be wrong. I gave thought to the possibility of me being wrong on the subject and researched it myself. I found that some passages used to condemn homosexuality very possibly don't actually do so; but this passage is unavoidably claiming homosexuality as sinful within all contexts. Please hear me, though, I am not claiming that you aren't a Christian nor that you don't love God. It's also apparent that you study the Word of God a lot. But that does NOT mean that everything you believe about the Bible is factual, just as it is with me and every other human on this earth, no matter how much schooling they've had or time they've put into studying it. There will always be these types of division in the Church, but it should NEVER get in the way of coming together in the unity of Christ or produce attitudes arrogance. You are not better than me, nor I than you. Let's try to keep that in mind when discussing these issues, because no matter how much we disagree, as long as we agree on Christ, we are brothers in Him. God bless, Rick!

Rick's comment: No Daniel, not even close. You haven't even read most of what I've written on Romans 1. And really, I've been more than patient in letting you "discourse" here on Romans 1, even though your comments are off topic and have nothing to do with the title and contents of my original post.

Oct 01, 2012
following up with Daniel's comments
by: amy

Rick: This is a comment section on your website, that you created, where you consistently respond to comments. To randomly say, "I'm not going to argue with you" because you don't like what someone is concluding is hardly strengthening your point, among other issues.

The issue at hand: I am confused because, speaking for myself, I was referring to Romans 1. I thought Daniel was as well. You said he was switching the conversation to Romans 1. Switching? I can't speak for Daniel but Romans 1 was exactly the passage I was referring to, and it seems that was the passage in discussion. Romans 1 was the very reason I specifically got involved in this conversation.

We all know what Romans 1 says. I don't believe there is any confusion on the idolatry issue, so no need to refer back to studying it again on this site. While the Bible is referring to idol worship, it is a stretch of monumental proportions (in my opinion) to believe that the negative explanation of turning people over from what is natural to unnatural somehow doesn't apply to us. That is so clear it is painful. So they are idol worshipers. And? What you are saying is this has no relevance to a gay relationship, where two people love each other, buy groceries, go to church, don't worship idols, etc... I get it. I just think you're wanting that to be so instead of it being so. Whether I worship idols or not, I think it's clear God is also expressing the issue of what is natural and God intended with what is not.

As you know already, I am gay. So for anyone reading this I think that is important, because I am hardly a bigot. As for my own self-loathing being the problem, I doubt it. You have suggested that before and I have considered it. I believe I love the Lord, live in the freedom and joy of being saved by Jesus, and want to live my life in His will. I believe it's a logical conclusion that many people have come to, and I don't believe everyone has it in for gays, and I don't believe everyone is ignorant, and I don't believe my concern comes from a place of self-loathing. As for anachronism, I doubt it. I think what I am seeing is straight forward and I am authentically interested in truth. I am intelligent and not a child. I have considered the issues of my own psyche coming into play.

Either way, it isn't acceptable nor is it a strong position, to continue to rest your laurels on me having intentional or unintentional psychological issues (using anachronism or self-loathing) and that is ultimately your final word.

Since that is your final word however, then my question is, have you considered the possibility that you are reading your own bias into this? What have you done to guard yourself against that possibility and how do you conclude that you are not?

Oct 01, 2012
This may help Daniel and Amy
by: Rick Brentlinger - Website Founder

I try to answer comments when I have time but I do not engage in lengthy debates in the comment section because the comments are not read by very many people and I don't have time to debate issues which are not part of my original posts. For instance, Romans 1 has nothing to do with the post: Did Jesus define marriage as only between a man and a woman?

I think it will be helpful to both of you to read what I've written instead of asking me to provide new answers. I have A LOT of info on this website about Romans 1 and I am fairly certain from the questions both of you have, that you have not read what I have written.

The way to debate an issue is not to ignore what I've written and keep raising new questions and making blanket assertions that you cannot support with facts. That is what both of you are doing and Amy, I have taken many hours and sent you many private email answers over the last year.

I hope you will visit the link below and read what I've written on Romans 1. I believe I more than adequately address the issues you raise. Many thanks for stopping by.

Romans 1 pages on GayChristian 101

Oct 08, 2012
False teachings.
by: Anonymous

It is sad to see false teachings. The Bible says a lot about those who falsely teach. To take a scripture and try to fit it into a lifestyle that is wrong so you feel better about what you are doing is wrong and you will face God's judgment. 1 Corinthians 7 1-9 does not give the okay to homosexual deviance. You can only serve one God or Satan. God gives us free will. I see you chose the latter.

Rick's comment: I'm sorry you cannot read plain English. Your opinion is your opinion, nothing more. I do hope you have enough sense to recognize your obligation to read and study the Bible IN CONTEXT, 2 Timothy 2:15.

If you start doing that, you will soon conclude that some of what you've been taught is wrong. Then you will be faced with a decision. Do I embrace the truth God has showed me or do I continue to parrot false teaching?

I hope you choose to embrace God's truth. Many thanks for stopping by.

Oct 11, 2012
Homosexuality is not okay, the bible clearly states it.
by: Anonymous

There are verses in the bible that specifically say
Homosexuality is NOT okay.

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Rick's comment: Wow, the depth of your ignorance is astonishing. Did it ever occur to you to read and interpret scripture in context? The context of those verses is temple prostitution, not homosexuality.

God's truth is on this website IF you are serious about believing God's truth. Sadly, it appears you are not serious. Thanks for stopping by.

Oct 12, 2012
There Was One Man, There Was One Woman. Period.
by: Anonymous

So, if I'm eight years old and am a sexual relationship a seventy-five year old man, what then?

Have you not read Romans 1 26-27? You must have. How about 1 Corinthians 9-10? Didn't like that one either, eh?

Jesus never once supported homosexuality, just as he chose to define marriage as between a man and woman. It should be noted that while he was not responding to a gay marriage question, he first chooses to define marriage as between a man and woman before answering the question.

"He Who created them from the beginning made them male and female"

It is you who have substituted your own opinion by placing more importance upon the question than the answer.

Also, God did not condone polygamy, but gave rules for converting believers who already had more than one partner.

I am not a perfect Christian. I personally believe myself lost. We all are. We need God's word, and should not modify it to suit our own comforts. Please, do not take advantage of God by indulging in both His love and sin.

Do I have problems of my own? Absolutely. But please, don't fall prey to the comforting words of those who advise sin.

God wants us to love another, but not to condone each other's sin, for it seperates us from Him.

To be either a man or a woman is a gift. Do not waste it, please.

Rick's comment: I've answered goofy screeds like yours ad nauseum. If you want truth, it is available simply by reading the Bible and this website. If you're not interested in truth, God will not shove it down your throat in this life. Thanks for stopping by.

Oct 14, 2012
After reading your Romans article...
by: Daniel

I am still left without a sufficient "explanation" of verse 27 which says with no ambiguity that men were trading in their natural sexual relations with women for that of unnatural relations with other men. This fits in just fine with the context despite your unsupported claim that it doesn't. It's a cause and effect motif. They were involved in pagan idolatry so God gave them up to unnatural desires for other men. You have danced around this argument with opinion stated as fact without providing a single sufficient argument or explanation for this verse to show that it can't fit into the context. Nor have you given anything that suggests it has an alternative meaning. Your fancy Bible college terms and knowledge of Greek won't fool me into believing this nonsense. It doesn't require a doctorate in hermeneutics to see that verse 27 is clearly referring to homosexual activity as an EFFECT of their pagan idolatry. Despite our discord on this subject, I still wish you blessings and love in Christ and I pray that you find the truth in all that you do. God bless, Rick. Truly.

Rick's comment: Daniel, you are so intent on imposing your anti-gay view on Romans 1:27 that apparently nothing will convince you otherwise. I hope you will continue to study because you are missing God's truth by a country mile.

Our early Christian ancestors, including the first Christian we have on record as commenting on Romans 1:26-27, Aristides, believed Paul was talking about temple prostitution. Use our search feature to find my Aristides page and please read it. Many thanks for stopping by.

Oct 14, 2012
What does the bible say?
by: Dean

“For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.”
—Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
—1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)

“Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,”
—1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NKJV)

Wow! in these three passages it is clear that acts of homosexuality is lumped right in there with murderers, kidnappers, and thieves. So unless the two women or two men getting married never plan on consummating there union by committing acts of homosexuality then I would say Go for it. But you and I know that would not be the case. It is one thing to tolerate sin in the church ( AKA gossip ) while trying to stop it, but to blatantly support and promote it is something all together different.

These three references indicate that homosexual passions and acts are unnatural, shameful, contrary to sound doctrine and deny entrance to the Kingdom of God. This being so, they cannot be the basis of a Christian marriage sanctioned by God’s Church. The Church exists to save people, not to bless the means of their damnation. No marriage can be sanctioned by the Church if the very basis of the marriage involves acts that put the couple outside of eternal salvation. No matter what our society may legislate, the law of God is clear - that a marriage is not a godly marriage if it is a same sex union.

Rick's comment: Dean, time to buy a vowel or get a clue. The Bible does not use any of the Greek words which would indicate homosexuality. The NKJV is incorrect when it inserts words into the Biblical text which make it appear that Paul was condemning gays.

Your rancor is unbecoming of your professed Christianity. I hope you will get right with the God you profess to love and start loving your gay brothers and lesbian sisters. Attacking them using mistranslated verses as your weapon only insures we will not listen to you. Thanks for stopping by.

Oct 19, 2012
I'm imposing nothing
by: Daniel

If you had any actual evidence supporting your claims about verse 27, then I could certainly be persuaded to believe otherwise. I believe what the Bible says, regardless of how inconvenient it may be. However, you have failed to provide a valid argument for the meaning of verse 27. Not once did I say that the verses preceding verse 27 aren't about temple prostitution. You keep saying I have but if you reread what I've written you'll see that you are incorrect. The reason I seem to be immovable on the subject is that you have failed to prove your view as the biblical one. If you were to provide a reasonable and biblical argument I'd be willing to admit that I might be wrong or even consider changing my position. However that isn't the case. I think you should look at yourself and see if you're guilty of what you are accusing me.

Rick's comment: Daniel, this is getting ridiculous. You have the proof you need in the many pages on my website about Romans 1. Either you are incapable of reading with comprehension or you love bloviating about how I haven't proven something to you.

You have not answered what I have written yet you keep demanding proof while ignoring what I have written. You are typical of so many commenters who refuse to deal with scripture in context while attempting to appear reasonable and scriptural.

Oct 30, 2012
This is to the antigays.
by: Ismaila

Please explain 1 Samuel 1:26.

"I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." King James Version

"I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was extraordinary, surpassing the love of women." English Standard Version

"How I weep for you, my brother Jonathan! Oh, how much I loved you! And your love for me was deep, deeper than the love of women!" New Living Translation


Oct 30, 2012
Why
by: Anonymous

Why can't people admit being "Wrong"? And why is a man built the way they are and a woman a woman, if God did not want us to reproduce?

Rick's comment: I agree. Why cannot Christians get their minds around the fact that God loves and saves gays without changing our sexual orientation?

I hope you'll carefully read the entire post that started this thread of comments. You will find it profitable to read it slowly and carefully AND look up the verses given.

At some point in time, Christians need to believe what the Bible says in context and stop insisting their opinion trumps scripture. Many thanks for stopping by.

Nov 01, 2012
A bit of advice
by: DOCDE

Rick, As a gay man who considers himself a follower of Christ, who appreciates your insight and agrees with much ( but not all) of what you say... I have to comment on your delivery.

When you respond to people, your tone is very condescending and arrogant. You judge others who do not agree with you and accuse them of " not being interested in the truth" simply because they are at a different place then you. Did it ever occur to you that many of the people that read your stuff might be fighting the fact that they themselves are gay? Instead of them being met by someone who prides himself with knowledge and who seems all to eager to deliver a biblical knock-out punch, wouldn't it be better for you to meet them with compassion , remembering that they are only responding out of what they know? Instead of demeaning and accusing them of not knowing the truth, wouldn't it better to respond in love and compassion , understanding where they are ?

Responding with quips like " Do you really think your lazy illogic will pass muster at the judgment seat of Christ?" is not helpful in building a bridge to understanding. I think GCN has a good rule, instead of phrasing something in a statement, phrase it in a graceful question.

Rick, you must remember that you have not arrived. You do not possess all truth. God may be bringing people into your life to teach you something..even those who disagree with you.

I encourage you to season yourself with the gentleness of the Holy Spirit.

Rick's comment: Thanks for your insight. In my opinion, what you and GCN do in practice is take the post-modern view. GCN rules level the playing field by putting anyone's opinion on the same level as what the Bible says.

I believe that is a huge apologetics error and therefore I take a strong Biblical stand for God's truth, rejecting post-modernism and its attempts to make all truth relative and all beliefs equally valid.

I also speak and write from the standpoint of receiving literally thousands of nasty negative emails from anonymous anti-gay christians who have never studied the issues on which they comment. And the truth is, they have no intention of studying the issues. Facts are secondary because they over-value their opinion.

My writing style intends to confront their intellectual laziness and spiritual ignorance. That is the job of a prophet - to take God's side in times of declension and apostasy when God has an argument with His people.

God is pro-gay. God loves GLBTs, died to save us from our sins and will freely give us the righteousness of Christ as a free gift when we receive Him as our Savior by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Hope this is helpful in explaining why I respond as I do. I will also note that I do respond gently in many cases. Part of walking in the Spirit is listening to His leading and responding as He directs me. That is not always popular but that is always my goal when answering comments.



Nov 11, 2012
Gay Marriage
by: Anonymous

What about Sodom and Gomorrah? This was before Jesus' time. Homosexuality did happen in Jewish time. That is way Jesus stated Marriage is between a Man and a Women. I think Christian have a hard time with the Gays using the word Marriage. Why not use Legal Union?

Rick's comment: It will be helpful if you'll get familiar with the issues and what the Bible says before commenting. No where in scripture does Jesus state that "Marriage is between a man and a woman." That you think He said that indicates you are not familiar with what scripture says in context.

Nov 11, 2012
I believe
by: Anonymous

Well jesus is the one true son of god come to earth in the cloak of the flesh in order to save us from our sins and nobody is good enough on their own to even begin to think about entering the kingdom of heaven. We all need Jesus the son of God in order to speak with Jehovah God the father and if we dont have him we cannot obtain such a communication. Now if this communication is not made we cannot enter into his realm. The bible says that as long as we know the son that we know the father also and that if we do not know the son we cannot know the father.

We should also put Jesus first and foremost in our lives and give up everything to follow him and then take up the cross alongside him. We need to love him because he first loved us and we cannot love him in truth unless we love each other so basically we must love the lord our God with all our heart all our body all our mind and all our soul love our neighbour as ourselves and have true faith that Jesus Christ was born of the virgin Mary was baptized by John resurrected Lazarus from the dead was crucified by the sons of the world and arose himself from the dead three days later to ascend and promise to return and deliver us from oppression of the world.

Do you follow this? If you do these things then if you are straight you wouldn't judge your homosexual brethren and if you're homosexual you would be monogamous correct? For the sin is fornication, not spending the rest of your life with a very wonderful person you love and cherish.

If they're guilty for that then look over at your wife and give yourself the same scrutiny because the flesh is worthless its what lies underneath the flesh and if the partner you find that completes you just so happens to have the same flesh as you remember its not an issue because the flesh is worthless we wont have it forever it means nothing and by feeding this issue you are all glorifing the flesh and making an issue that has very little standing very great.

If you truly have faith and truly believe and you're a man and you live with this man just as anyone else would live with a woman there is no difference. That's what i believe. I believe in JESUS CHRIST the HOLY SON of GOD! I believe i am washed in his blood and on judgement day if i have surmised wrong he wont know me but i ask him not to forget me and so through faith i know he wont. Good day Ladies and Gentlemen.

Nov 18, 2012
God's plan for marriage
by: Bonnie

God's original design is revealed in Genesis 2:24, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, [not wives] and they will become one flesh [not many]." When Jesus is asked about marriage, He confirms this understanding of the original plan in Mark 10:1-12, along with Matthew 19:1-12. Speaking on divorce, Jesus noted that it was not part of the plan for marriage, but because of the hardness of man's heart. It appears evident that God promoted monogamy, not polygamy. Simply because we find polygamous relationships in Scripture does not mean that God condones it or agrees with it. In fact, we find recorded cases of lying, murder, as well as rape, but God certainly does not condone those.

Rick's comment: Bonnie, how did you miss this? Jehovah God Himself affirmed polygamy through His prophet Nathan in 2 Samuel 12:7-8.

"And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things."


At the point in time when Jehovah gave additional wives into David's bosom, David already had at least seven wives whose names are given: Ahinoam, Abigail, Maacah, Haggith, Abital, Eglah, 2 Samuel 3:2-5, Michal, v. 13.

Because God affirmed polygamy, that is clear testimony from God that He does not agree with your opinion that one man with one woman is the only marriage relationship God will bless.

Polygamy in the Bible was a Biblical family value first mentioned in Genesis 4:19. Some but not all ancient Biblical heroes lived in polygamous marriages and yet still enjoyed the blessing grace and mercy of a loving God.

At least two of the human authors of the Bible, David and Solomon, were living in polygamous marriages when they wrote part of the Bible, Psalms, Proverbs and Ecclesiastes.

Some Christians believe that Moses, the human author of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, also lived in a polygamous marriage with two women. Scripture tells us Moses had two wives, Zipporah, mentioned in Ex 2:15-16-21 and 18:1-6, and an Ethiopian wife mentioned in Numbers 12:1-15.

Moses' first wife may have died before Moses married his second wife yet the Bible does not make that clear one way or the other. We do know that God led Moses to make legal provision for polygamy in Jewish law by mandating inheritance rights when a man was married to more than one wife, Deut 21:15-17.

Nov 21, 2012
Amy and Daniel
by: Anonymous

Everyone needs to calm down. I mean get over yourselves Amy and Daniel. You two are bible beaters. I too read and i have a question. Have you ever lied? That's sin. Have you ever stolen anything as simple as a pencil or pen?

Nov 22, 2012
hi anonymous
by: amy

That's the first time I've been called a Bible beater. lol. Yes, I have sinned. If you read any of the entires without being emotional you would know I am also gay. I stole a candy bar when I was a kid, and as a young adult I was lost, and running the wrong way and stole some clothes from a store.

I have also lied but I can't remember them all. I cheated on someone once in a relationship. I would go on but it's a little difficult to remember the countless sins in my life and my heart.

Bible beater seems to be an emotional catch all that people say when they're mad. However the author of this site also believes the Bible to be the infallible word of God, for which we agree. Those entries are legitimate questions, not attacks. I considered the answers to also be legitimate answers and not attacks. I think maybe you should examine your own heart, dude.

Dec 19, 2012
To Anti-Gays - Why bother?
by: Leviathan

All arguments here are pointless. You aren't swaying anyone over. You actually spent time and research on an online forum, arguing with someone you can't win against. You have to stop now, Matthew 7:6.

Homosexuality is observed (even largely) in species from monkeys to dolphins.

P.S.: Direct translation of the Bible shows very little against gays and next to nothing about lesbians.

P.P.S.: This took me 2 minutes to type.

Dec 30, 2012
marriage
by: eryk gee

why are you fighting what you know !
Jesus did not have to define marriage
between a man and a woman.
He spoke long before that,
so please read your Torah,or Bible
if you know what a commandment is
them explain this one,

"UNITE AND MULTIPLY"

let me know how two of the same gender can do it.

Rick's comment: eryk gee - I'm going to ask you to do something you've apparently never done before - THINK! When God said: Be fruitful and multiply" to Adam and Eve, there were two people on earth. Today there are 7 billion people on earth.

If I need to explain to you why that command has already been obeyed, that indicates you are not thinking.

Jan 06, 2013
Sodom and Gomorrah
by: Greg

Why did God destroy these places? Why is it that when the homosexual men of that city came to the door of Lots house demanding that the Angels that were there be brought out for them, Lot refused and offered his daughters instead and stated "Thats what they were created for."

Rick's comment: 1. The Bible NEVER says anyone in Sodom was homosexual. You're just making things up. 2. Lot never said of his daughters: "That's what they were created for." Again, you're just making things up.

What is it about truth that you don't like? Wouldn't it be more honest to believe what the Bible says in context?


I personally dislike or hate gays, lesbians or anyone to be honest, but Sir there is no way you can justify this sin. When God created the world, he created it in perfection. Am I correct? If what you believe is true, then after God created Adam he should have then created another man along with the woman and gave him the option to choose one. But he didn't He created a MAN and then created a WOMAN for that man. God dont make mistakes.

Rick's comment: Your spiritual blindness is amazing. You managed to ignore everything I wrote so that you wouldn't have to think about it, let alone deal with it. Then you lied about the Sodom story in Genesis 19 in your attempt to make it support your prejudices.

Why do you refuse to deal honestly with what the Bible says in context? Do you believe God is pleased with your lies?


Jan 06, 2013
Physician heal thyself
by: Sardent

"Why do you refuse to deal honestly with what the Bible says in context? Do you believe God is pleased with your lies?" Perhaps you should answer that question yourself.

Rick's comment: One of the strangest things I've ever encountered is professing christians who lie and rip verses out of context. What kind of fantasy world are you guys living in?

Can you find the word homosexual anywhere in the Bible where Sodom is mentioned? No, of course not. You're teaching fairy tales because the Bible does NOT say what you wish it said.

Jan 08, 2013
To Sonjee on grace
by: Anonymous

But because of God's victory over sin, we who believe are "under grace" as Paul explains in Romans chapter 6. But what does that entail? Well, it entails being ruled by grace. Grace reigns over us. "Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace" (6:14). Sin does not master us because grace masters us.

And what is the character of grace's reign in the Christian life? Grace reigns through righteousness. When grace vanquishes sin, it establishes the reign of righteousness throughout the realm until eternal life is consummated. That's why grace and license are incompatible. License reigns through lust and sin and death. But we've been freed from that. We've died to the law and died to sin. We are each day to "count ourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus" (6:11). Did you begin today considering yourself dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus? The benefit of that mental application is we no longer allow sin to reign in our mortal bodies by obeying its evil desires (6:12). Grace and license are incompatible because grace reigns through righteousness.

Perhaps that's the point we most often misunderstand. Perhaps that's why so many allusions to grace look to us like sly winks at sin. Have you heard Christians respond to the correct application of scriptural command with, "But we're not under law but under grace"? Have you ever heard Christians oppose the biblical practice of corrective discipline by appealing to "grace"? From time to time, we hear Christians offering a soothing palliative to an unrepentant sinner, leaving them in their sins by saying in so many words, "it's okay because it's all about grace anyway." Sounds suspiciously like the hardened unbeliever who proclaims God must forgive him his sins because "that's what God does."

Rick's comment: I agree with Pastor Thabiti Anyabwile on grace and not license, whom you've quoted here. For me, the problem is that neither you nor Pastor Anyabwile will deal with what the Bible says in context. Instead, as you do here, you subtly imply that since we disagree on the gay issue, we must be either unsaved (like the hardened unbeliever) or we must be using grace as a shield for our "sin" of defending being gay and Christian. Your refusal to deal with what the Bible says in context in the clobber passages is as troubling as your false accusations against us. We ARE saved and you ARE wrong.

Jan 08, 2013
To Sonjee on grace, cont.
by: Anonymous

What's wrong with many of these statements? Somehow they divorce the idea of grace from its reign through righteousness. They forget that "the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It (saving grace) teaches us to say ‘No' to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good" (Titus 2:11-14). Grace teaches us righteousness. Grace teaches us to "just say ‘no'". Positively, grace instructs us in self-control, uprightness, and godliness-even in an age of lawlessness and darkness. Grace becomes for us a purifying agency, and creates in us a strong inclination to do good. Grace reigns in the Christian life, but it does so through the inculcation and cultivation of righteousness.

It would profit us greatly to beware that godless teaching that "changes the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord" (Jude 4b). And we must beware of our own heart's tendency to turn grace into lawlessness, or to resort back to the law as a means of righteousness. Both are gospel denying retreats. For the true grace of God turns the lawless into the righteous and brings eternal life where the law brought death.

Rick's comment: Again you assume that you are right on the clobber passages, one of which you allude to here when you cite Jude 4b. It becomes clear by your citation that you are completely unfamiliar with what Jude says in context. Further, you are completely unfamiliar with how your fellow anti-gay believers have interpreted Jude.

If you love God's truth, it will profit you greatly to read Does Jude condemn gays?

Jan 08, 2013
To Rick
by: Anonymous

1 Samuel 2:3 “Do not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak such arrogance, for the Lord is a God who knows, and by him deeds are weighed."


You my friend at no avail have totally tried to change the bible to work for your wicked ways. It is also not rocket science to see that two men or two women do not fit because God did not make them to fit. We are all born with free will to sin or not. You need to stop trying to argue something that is wrong and evil in God's eyes. It is your choice to continue down this sinful road but stop trying to make it okay it is NOT!!

I pray that God puts you on the right path, because right now you have strayed way off.

Rick's comment: In these last three comments you have made Anonymous and false accusations (indicating lack of courage to put your name with your lies) while refusing to discuss what the Bible says in context in the clobber passages. And you have steadfastly refused to deal with anything I wrote in the post which started this thread.

You are more interested in pushing your opinion than you are in what the Bible says in context. No problem. I get it. I encourage you to trust God enough to believe that He put scripture in context so that folks like you, with an agenda, would eventually be forced to acknowledge context and get right with God.

Do you have the courage to keep studying? Do you have the courage to admit the context, which some of your Gospel Coalition friends have already admitted? I hope you have that kind of Christian courage Mr/Ms Anonymous.

Jan 12, 2013
To Rick
by: Anonymous

You appear to think you are correct in everything you write and have on everyone who has stated something from the Bible you oppose to be wrong no matter what. My opinion does not matter nor does yours. You can continue changing things to make it seem like the Bible and God don't have a problem with homosexuality if that makes you feel better about yourself but God with make the ultimate judgement. God talks a lot about false teachers and you are a prime example. Again two men don't fit and two women don't fit clearly not rocket science nor can you procreate. God made us the way we are for a reason and your lifestyle is not what he intended no matter how much garbage you spew. I hope one day God will speak to your heart and show you just how misguided you are. Have a nice life.

Rick's comment: Your Anonymous self-righteousness is competing with your ignorance of scripture rightly divided. Will you ever study enough to present a scriptural argument to support your views? Probably not. This week please read, memorize and obey 2 Timothy 2:15. That is your #1 task.

Jan 14, 2013
You will answer to God for deceiving people
by: niki34

YES HE DID!!! For the simple fact Christ is indeed the God of the OT made flesh john 1:1.to all my fellow Christians posting on this site,stop wasting your time,rick does not consider homosexuality a sin so therein lies the problem.I could not phantom standing before a Holy and Righteous God telling him that he is wrong on what he considers to be sin,I'm a dirty rotten sinner like anyone else but I will NOT justify my sinful behavior.rick you will have alot of ppl blood on your hands,you twist the Scriptures to your own destruction & you hide the truth of God's word from ppl.you comfort other gays & lie to them by making them think there is no punishment for their sinful lifestyle.God have mercy on your soul.

Rick's comment: Niki34,God has already had mercy on my soul when He saved me by His grace. Your histrionic diatribe will only convince low-information christians who refuse to study the Bible. Those of us who study do not go on emotions. We deal with facts and with scripture rightly divided.

Jan 14, 2013
to other so-called christians
by: niki34

To other so-called Christians who claim to be heterosexual but attack other Christians for their stance on homosexuality because they will NOT compromise when it comes to God's word,you need to reevaluate your walk with The Most High because just cause the times have changed does not mean he has nor what he has said to be sin,he's the same yesterday today forever.

Christians are suppose to use righteous judgement,not a hypocritical one.Paul said "know ye not that we will judge angels?" But we are NOT to judge unbelievers for God has already judged them,but those claiming to be in the faith we are to judge.

Rick I love u so much brother but Christ loves u more,renounce homosexuality & turn it over to Christ brother.by his stripes we r healed.

Rick's comment: I get that a lot Niki34, the I love you but... It is time to study the Bible and ancient history. It is time to take off the blinders, open your eyes and see what your false teaching is doing to your gay brothers and lesbian sisters.

May I humbly suggest, you need to renounce your false teaching about gays and embrace the truth of scripture rightly divided? I hope you will do that soon.

Jan 15, 2013
To Rick
by: Anonymous

You are an idiot! I feel very sorry for you. May God work in your heart and make you see you are wrong. God Bless.

Rick's comment: Thanks for letting me know. Why do you feel like you know what you're talking about on the gay issue without bothering to study the Bible in context? Why do you lack the courage to put your real name with your insult?

Jesus breaks the power of cancelled sin;

He sets the prisoner free.

His blood can make the foulest clean.

His blood availed for me.


Jan 18, 2013
Well.....no!
by: Doug

To adhere to a homosexual lifestyle is to say that God intended for your biological makeup to contradict your mind & will. If you're a homosexual Christian then please repent of your sin and abstain from your lifestyle.

Rick's comment: I see how your illogic works.

1. Ignore everything the Bible says in context in Matthew 19.

2. Take Jesus words to heterosexual Jewish men about their sinful heterosexual divorce practices and re-interpret them as if Jesus condemned gay marriage.

3. Insist that your out of context verse twisting is the only valid way of interpreting Matthew 19:3-12.

4. Then condemn gay Christians who disagree with your dishonest tactics.

Might be wise to repent of your verse twisting and begin to deal honestly with what the Bible says in context. How about it Doug? Are you man enough to do that?

Jan 22, 2013
get real Rick and get some deliverance
by: Anonymous

Ok Rick, here’s the bottom line truth on homosexuality. Yes, people can be born gay. And yes homosexuality is a sin, big time. This is what many people don’t understand. The Bible is a spiritual book. It teaches on the interaction between man and the spiritual world. In that spiritual world which is more real than the natural word because it existed first, there are spiritual beings. Some are good and some are evil. The Bible refers to them as demons. Demons can cause sicknesses to come upon a human’s body, they can cause accidents and they can influence the mind. They also enforce curses. Everyone absolutely everyone has some demons in them. One of the ways they influence the mind is to have someone be attracted to a person of the same gender. Get rid of the gay demons in the person and they will no longer be attracted to someone of the same sex. But that person has to have a desire to be free of their gay demons. Like I said everyone has some type of demon in them. It just so happens that 5 to 10 % of people have gay demons in them.

Rick's comment: You poor confused thing. If you have demons in you, then you are not saved. There is no instance anywhere in the Bible where demons were ever cast out of a born again Christian. You need to read and heed this helpful article on the Holy Spirit.

And this article will help you discover honest doctrinal truth about the religious scam artists and their deliverance ministries.


And there is no where in the Bible where it says "compatible partner". You are making stuff up Rick. And there is no way , one can be gay and be a Christian. The homosexuals act is perversion at it's highest degree. Always has been, always will be, no matter what lie you migh try to protray. Get some deliverance Rick.


Oh, yes did you know Rick that Jesus once used a derogatory word for a gay person? In Luke 13 he calls Herod Antipas a fox. If you do some studying you’ll realize he was basically calling him a sissy.

Jan 23, 2013
wow...
by: sonjee

Ok, well I do believe that there are saved homosexual people. Now here is my problem with the notion that gay people have to first want to be changed. Now I hope we can all agree that there is only one that can change us, that's the savior, Jesus! We do not have the power to change ourselves. Now how can he change us except he be in us. Now for that gay person to change, they have to first have the changer within. So Jesus must first come into a person to change the person. I do believe that homosexuality is a sin, but I also believe that his grace is sufficient.

Rick's comment: Since you believe that homosexuality is sin, you must have some verses which, in context, say that. Yet you've presented no verses which, in context, say that.

I believe that the father is very upset at how his children are being treated. I find it interesting that God will save the adulterer, drunkard, fornicator, liar, accuser of the brethren, everyone except the person that is gay. unless they want to stop, they are damned. That is not biblical.

The biggest issue is that with most people their sins are ever before the lord, with gay people, their sins are forever before man! Lord how dangerous. Man will condemn you to death but thank god for Jesus, man is not my savior. The father will deal with all of his wayward children, that's everyone of us.

Those that are gay and those that are not. Those that cheat, beat their wives, molest children, backbiters and accusers, all will be dealt with by him. We do not fear damnation but we do face destruction because of sin.

Jan 23, 2013
Too much judging
by: Jennifer Janee' Travelstead

believe what you want as far as scripture, and what man made it say, they were all human that wrote it! none of gods words are in print from god? does that not bother you who wish to point out mans version of gods words?

Rick's comment: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Timothy 3:16

I mean really, cave mans version of dinner, isnt exact too politically correct now is it? I so hope that every individual who runs past this, is a person who is on a search away from believers and none believers to their own personal relationship with God.

Personally, I can confess that my conscious is what i rely on for god to tell me what i am doing is wrong, even when i have doubted myself due to pre-conditioning.

I live my life in peace, knowing what I am doing in my bedroom is sacred. No we do not and cannot reproduce, who are you? who am I, and should i judge anyone? who is responsible for sin are we to still handle all of the godly affairs? must we still burn innocent women for being witches for being alone? or gifted in a world that believes in physics? please my people do not waste your time in judging what happens in someones bedroom!

gay people are not all the same, just as white or black or veggies are not the same but we do wish to cross them for sake of taste? people take your opinions and put them in your pocket! life is to live and love, as many people as you possibly can fit in, in a day!

I am a lesbian, but that sexually defines me, what about the rest of the person? and anyway why do you care what happens in my bedroom unless you are one of those priest in the palace who cut boys balls off so they look more like a girl so you dont feel like judging yourself for homosexuality?

Jan 23, 2013
former gay
by: Michael Riley

sonjee, I believe that once a person comes to Jesus and receives deliverance from homosexuality spirits, they are no longer gay. They are former homesexuals who are walking in the freedom of the love Christ.

and for your infomation animals can have gay spirits in them also. Evil spirits prefer to inhabit human bodies, but if they can't find a human body they will enter the body of an animal.

Rick's comment: Michael, you are a seriously confused guy with a seriously confused anti-gay agenda. Exodus International admits that 99.9% of the people who have endured their ministry do not change their sexual orientation. John Smid admits that in 23 years of ex-gay work, he never saw anyone change their sexual orientation.

Are you Michael Riley of Church of the Open Door in San Rafael? Why are you pushing the false teaching of deliverance ministries? I notice you never present any verses which, in context, say what you believe on these issues. That is why we reject your teaching, because it is your opinion, without any support from the Bible in context.

Jan 23, 2013
sonjee
by: Anonymous

I do believe that spirits can inhabit animals. You are not telling me anything new. Yes, I to was with a woman for 10 years. Now because I am no longer in the relationship should I judge my brothers and sisters for being in one, no! Yes, we SHOULD stop doing some of the things that we were doing before we got saved but guess what, we are flesh and we continue to sin. I get discussed with people that were at one time gay and now have been delivered and they take to condemning their sisters and brothers who are dealing with the same issues. Some people get saved and are delivered from lying, adultry, addiction, lust demons, and then, some are not. They are just as saved as those that were delivered. There is no level of salvation from hell. Saved is saves.

So just because you were delivered dont condemn your brothers and sisters who are still dealing with things, no matter what they are. Just pray, Pray for them and just that our fathers love will abide. Now yes, i beleive its a sin. I was indulging in the sinful relationship but guess what.

Rick's comment: Don't be fooled by people who profess to have been delivered from homosexuality. Even the anti-gay experts say they've never seen anyone change from gay to straight. Some folks make a living off continuing the lie. Others stubbornly cling to the lie because they are too lazy to study and interpret scripture in context.

I may not be in that but Im in some type of sin. Trust me! We all are!! We will be til the day the father calls us home. We are his sinful children. let him deal with his children.

Jan 23, 2013
continue....
by: sonjee

Now here is what I believe. I look at what we as believes have done to one another. We have become the accusers. That is so dangerous. Its like an autoimmune disease. The body is suffering because of itself! Something has lodged itself within some tissue of the body and the body, because its trying to rid itself of the intrusion, has become its worst enemy!

Because many feel that they are right to attack the gay believer they are no better than the autoimmune disease that is making the whole body sick! Just think about it. If you feel the person is wrong for loving someone of the same sex does that give you the right to attack them, no! The master physician will heal the body, he is the only one. The only thing the immune system can do is make the body sicker. So stop it! Brothers and sisters stop it or we end up with children killing themselves. Cousins, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, and friends are killing themselves because of accusers.

Demonic influences like lady gaga calling some of our brothers monsters, her little monsters and they accept it because she is making them feel loved! That is crazy and sad. I want you all to know that I love you! I don't care what ANYONE says to you about your salvation, you take it to Jesus in prayer. Tell him what you are struggling with and if you NEVER come out of this just know that Jesus loves you just as much as he loves any of us. You may be struggling with your sin, so is EVERYONE ELSE. Just admit we are sinners that's why we have Jesus. What is so damning in saying that homosexuality is a sin?

Rick's comment: The Bible in context never says that. The context of all the clobber passages is temple prostitution and temple prostitutes, not two men or two women falling in love and getting married. There is no reason to accept the false interpretation of the anti-gay crowd.

My watching certain movies or listening to certain music is a sin, I'm a sinner thank god i'm saved by grace! We ARE ALL SINNERS, HAVING TO BE DELIVERED FROM SOMETHING. IT WILL BE THAT WAY TIL THE DAY WE DIE.

I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. we MUST come together because the world is coming together against us! trust that! We are hated and cannot afford to hate on each other.

Jan 24, 2013
Temple prostitution
by: amy

Regarding the temple prostitution reference. As always, the Bible is referencing sinful behavior (not just homosexuality) that was related to the temple prostitution.

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful..."

The Bible is pointing out sin. Regardless of whether this sin was motivated by worshiping idols, it is still recognized as sin. Being "untrustworthy" is no less a sin, whether I am a saved christian or worshiping idols. The idea is, the saved, and people who know the Lord, will avoid these behaviors.

Rick's comment: That is a not so ingenious way of ignoring context Amy. As I understand it, you are saying: I agree that the context is idol worship. But I assert that gays in loving committed relationship are doing essentially the same thing as idol worshipers even though they are not idol worshipers, therefore gay is wrong and sinful, yada yada yada.

I do not view that approach as hermeneutically sound. It is misguided because it takes scripture out of context and misapplies it in ways God never intended. If I've misunderstood your views, please let me know.

Jan 26, 2013
scripture
by: Anonymous

sadom and gamaro the lord burned down a city because of homosexuality.

Rick's comment: No, your information is entirely wrong. Even anti-gay Christian scholars admit that your view is incorrect. Check out the facts on our Sodom page.


Jan 28, 2013
Polygamy
by: Rachel

While I understand your use of Polygamy as an exception to the rule, I think it is a poor argument. Polygamy was only practiced in small parts of palestinian jewish society, not widely in the roman/greek world. Jesus clearly states in the NT that in fact polygamy is not acceptable.

"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (NIV Matt 19.8-9, pp. Mark 10.1-12)

Rick's comment: Hi Rachel. It seems you have missed the point of the polygamy argument and the actual question Jesus was asked. First, if there are ANY exceptions to absolute complementarianism (like polygamy), then we know that absolute complementarianism is not God's viewpoint.

Second, heterosexual Jewish men living under the law in the land of Israel before the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, asked Jesus about the divorce practices of heterosexual Jews. No one was asking Jesus about gay marriage.

Third, to rip Jesus' answer to those heterosexual Jewish men out of its heterosexual context and insist that Jesus was making any kind of negative statement about gay marriage is far afield from anything Jesus said in context. I have no doubt that you agree with me on that.

Did you even bother to read the article which began this comment section? No one who heard Jesus speak in Matthew 19 would hold your view on the issue of polygamy. If they had believed like you think they believed, there would have been no need for the Holy Spirit and Paul, some 33 years later, to point out that a bishop and a deacon must be in monogamous marriages, that polygamy is not allowed for them.

I encourage you to re-read the article more carefully, look up the verses and give it more serious thought. Many thanks for stopping by and for having the courage to use your name instead of commenting anonymously.


Feb 06, 2013
dont be mislead
by: Anonymous

God created a man and a woman n you should know that marriages is clearly defined. if you think that gay is ok then you should be thinking that you are evolved from apes not from God intelligent design.

you must read the bible and interpreting the bible according to the context of the bible. Because of sin God floated the earth. Gays practices is an abomination. n killing innocent babies is a sin.

Rick's comment: Okay, I see how that works. Ignore every verse I gave. Ignore the historically accurate context of the verses. And then restate your erroneous opinion without any logic, without any reason to back it up. Now I understand.

Feb 20, 2013
The Holy Christian Bible vs The Human Rights Of The GLBT Community
by: ABratt's PerspectivesThe

"Even John Shelby Spong admitted homosexuality cannot be defended from Scripture."

If I was gay, I would not fight for my rights against a Book and its accompanying dogma that is already stacked against me. The key word to the existence of the Book/Christianity is Procreation, not Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself or any of that nonsense.

Rick's comment: Jesus takes the witness stand to disagree with you.

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matthew 22:37-39


The elite of the Founding Fathers made certain that Christianity and its errant Bible were in no way the law of the American government they so very carefully founded. And that was because they, inside their own hearts and minds, were suspicious of a religion based on superstition! They were Deists, not Bible Thumping Christian Fundamentalists like so many Christians of this day.They believed in the GOD OF NATURE--LITERALLY-- NATURE! NATURALISM!

Again, if I was Gay, I would fight for my rights based on the secular style American Government the founders designed. Let your fight be predicated on American Made Human Rights, not on revising errant, contradictory Christian teachings that are being exposed to the world every single day. The credibility of Christianity and the Holy Bible is on the decline!

Rick's comment: I encourage you to complete this FREE Bible study: Jesus teaches Hell 101 and to take the Are you a good person? test. Many thanks for stopping by.




Feb 20, 2013
January 24th response I missed
by: amy

Rick - My apologies, I missed your response, and just saw it as I was reading the latest entry. Yes, you continue to "misunderstand." Yes, I am aware of the idol worship issue, and the depravity involved. I learned of this context twenty years ago, when I first began studying the Bible regarding homosexuality. This is old news and not a disagreeable issue as far as I know; from either side of the "camp."

So to answer your question yes, I agree with that, and I believe I have pointed that out countless times in our exchanges. There is a lot of sin the Bible references in Romans 1, besides same sex sex.

Rick's comment:There you go again Amy. You assert your view as if it is fact without ANY supporting evidence. You've already stipulated that the context is temple prostitution, a fact you say you've believed for 20 years.

While the Bible is taking this opportunity to point out the unnaturalness of same sex sex, it is not the only focus. One of the other many sins mentioned is greed. I know saved Christians who are greedy. Do I think they aren't saved because they are greedy? No, of course I think they are indeed saved. However I recognize sin as sin.

We are saved and hope to grow in righteousness, and God doesn't give us over to our sin. Good news!! However it does not change the fact that greed is sin. Based on your logic, as long as you're saved, and not worshiping idols and not entirely rejecting the one true God, then the same sin that God references in Romans 1, is ok.

Rick's comment: No Amy. You're making up a straw man argument which I've never made and attempting to saddle me with your false and illogical argument.

You have to apply the same logic to the same sex reference as you do to the issue of greed, slander, and so on. The point is, these are sins as the Bible points out. They are not ok. While the context is idol worship and completely rejecting God to the point that God gives you over, doesn't negate the fact that they are sins, and the saved christian would be wise to avoid them.

Rick's comment: The sin at issue is temple prostitution, not two gay guys or two gay gals.

In the context of Romans 1, God gives them over. This is serious business of unsaved people and they are so depraved God gives them over. That's bad. That's serious. And that is a different issue. A different issue that doesn't change the fact that greed, slander, and gossip are still sinful, nonetheless.

Rick's comment: God gave them over because of idolatry Amy, not because they were gay.

Feb 20, 2013
missed response January 24th
by: amy

As for pointing out that my comment is "not so ingenious" I am going to say that is rude, and implies something that you know, or should know by now from our exchanges, is simply not true. I am in no way trying to be clever. If I was capable of being insulted that would be insulting. However it doesn't matter because my heart knows the truth. If yours doesn't by now, I would examine it.

Adding the verses we are referencing in this discussion:

"26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."


Rick's comment: Amy, your response is not so ingenious because you present no argument to support your belief. You simply assert your opinion without any context from culture, history, linguistics or religion to support it.

You also employ the "Yes but..." argument in which you agree that the context is temple prostitution. Then you say in essence, Yes but I also think it's talking about homosexuality in general...

Anyway, these comments are off-topic and should be about the topic, Did Jesus define marriage as only between a man and a woman? Let's focus on that in all future comments here.


Feb 24, 2013
Marriage Defined by Jesus
by: Jeff

Matthew 19:4-6 NKJV. “And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Rick's comment: I'm not sure what your point is Jeff, since I quoted Matthew 19:4-7 to start the discussion. I hope you will read and think more deeply on this. Many thanks.

Feb 25, 2013
To all
by: Anonymous

Again people stop trying to discuss this with Rick. No matter what only he understands the scripture. At least in his own little world. He is gay and proud and certainly will face hell.

Rick's comment: How about dealing with facts? How about interpreting scripture in context? How about performing due diligence so that you know what you're talking about? Is that too much to ask?

Snarky comments that I am going to hell because we disagree on the issue of homosexuality indicate childish immaturity. If you had truth on your side, you could discuss the issues without resorting to such foolishness.

Feb 25, 2013
Rick
by: Anonymous

Saved by grace is not a green light to continue in sin. You are to leave your old life for that which is new. You will burn in hell if you continue Rick.

You seem to think only you are aware of what the Bible says yet you my friend only twist things to fit you wicked lifestyle. God loves the sinner hates the sin. Stop twisting scripture because in the end it won't help you when you stand before God.

If I were you I would really wonder if in fact giving that you still think your way is right over that which God has made abundantly clear that your name is in the book of life.

Rick's comment: Oh, that's just peachy! Because we disagree, you accuse me of not being saved. Your ability to think clearly hasn't progressed past second grade play ground logic. Thanks for stopping by. You might want to try ginko biloba to stimulate clear thinking.


Feb 25, 2013
Sinful Lifestyle
by: Michael Riley

Give it up Rick or give it up the demon that is controling you. If you say your are a Christian, that means you believe in God and Bible. If you believe in the Bible that means you believe in angels and some angels are fallen angels, in other words demons. And one type of demon is the spirit of homosexuality. So Rick do you want to get that evil spirit of homosexuality out of you? I can help you get rid of it over the internet.

Rick's comment: Wow, you con artists seem to rant in cycles. First it was, You're not saved because you disagree with us on the gay issue.

Now it has morphed into, You have demons because you disagree with us on the gay issue.

Do ANY of you intend to study the Bible in context at some point in your life? Do ANY of you even care what the Bible says in context? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

You may benefit greatly from reading and believing: Are deliverance ministries scriptural? That page exposes and debunks unspiritual protection rackets which purport to cast demons out of saved people.

Feb 26, 2013
Rick
by: Anonymous

Like I said before everyone needs to leave poor little Rick alone. He is on his way to hell and can only blame himself for being a excuse maker for continuing in his sin.

Rick if you were truly saved you would leave your old life of sin for a new one. Grace is not a green light to continue in sin. Admit it if saved you would have a conviction of the sin you are committing.

Yes we will fall on occasion but to just think you can continue in your sin because of grace means you don't understand truly the sacrifice that Jesus did on the cross for you. The only thing you are showing Jesus is just how little it truly means to you. The way of the world is so much better in your eyes obviously.

Rick's comment: Wow! How easy it is to falsely accuse a blood-bought fellow Christian when you hide behind Anonymity. I encourage you to carefully read my five part series, Justification by faith. Many thanks.

Feb 26, 2013
Rick
by: Anonymous

No thanks, false teaching not interested.

Rick's comment: Why am I not surprised?

"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." - Proverbs 18:13

Mar 01, 2013
The Bible sets precedent only for male-female marriage
by: Chris Robinson

The universe itself has been established and is upheld by laws, laws that should be considered verifiable evidence that some higher power has established these laws, for if not, how did these laws all come into existence? Are we to believe that the universe just happened to spontaneously create itself, and then established all the laws that govern its very existence?

So all of Creation is set and guided by laws that Christ has set forth. In Gen God states: “The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

Of course God created woman for the man, this is the what the Lord chose. "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.”

So here in the very beginning of man’s odyssey, Christ the purveyor of universal law, lays out the system of marriage. He is SHOWING humanity just how this system of “FAMILY” is going to work. Christ is setting legal precedent by creating this order of family and the institution of marriage between Adam and Eve, man and woman.

Rick's comment: Hi Chris - interesting that you open with a quote from your screen play and film, Jackson's Run.

The view you assert is known as absolute complementarity, i.e., the belief that God will only bless a one man with one woman marriage; that in Genesis 2:24 God intended to prescribe the only marriage situation He will bless and to proscribe ALL other possible marriage situations.

The problem with that view is that (1) the Bible never says that, (2) no human author of the Bible says that and (3) the Bible never even implies that and (4) the Bible makes clear that polygamy is affirmed, blessed and Godly, Deu 21:15-17, 2 Samuel 12:7-8 and 2 Chronicles 23:2-3. Absolute complementarianism is a man-made view which is read into the Bible (because the Bible never says it) but it is usually taught AS IF the Bible says it.

Folks who think logically on other issues seem to throw their mind out of gear on the issue of marriage. Their emotions and their preconceptions (regardless how lacking in biblical support), seem to overwhelm their capacity for logical thought.

I encourage you to read my information on Adam and Eve and the links to additional information. One can and should reject absolute complementarianism while retaining conservative biblical views based on what the Bible actually says and not what it is presumed to teach. Hope this is helpful Chris.

Mar 20, 2013
Homosexuality is wrong
by: AnonymousCharlie

The bible is quite plain on showing marriage is between a man and a woman. Romans chapter one can't be any clearer, as well as other scriptures. Scriptures showing that those who are sexually immoral will not inherit God's kingdom.

Those who are not called by God, and those who want the homosexual lifestyle, cannot see this truth because the scriptures also point out they are blind to the truth. It does not matter what proof anyone sets before them they will not see it.

One day they will when God calls them and opens their mind, only then will they see and only then will they make a decision to choose the truth over their blind error of beliefs. It is absolutely pointless to argue scripture with someone who refuses to see and cannot yet see the truth of those scriptures.

Pray for them, love them and leave them to God. If they want to ask you something in all sincerity because they want to know the truth, then by all means discuss it with them and show them scripture, but otherwise you are wasteing yours and their time, all they will do is argue with you wanting to hold on to their false reasoning.

Homosexuality is a filthy dirty sin and God hates it. Sodom and Gomorah and it's surrounding cities found this out the hard way when they would not repent of their wickedness. They bible points out they are examples for anyone who might follow their evil ways. Thanks be to God we can be given a new life in Christ once we see the error of our ways and repent and turn to him.

Rick's comment: I'm guessing that since you are such a blizzard of ignorance, it was probably snowing when you typed that. You sound angry and hurting, bitter and sad. I encourage you to turn from your sins and get saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. He will turn your sorrow into joy.

Mar 27, 2013
Marriage of Man and Woman
by: Anonymous

Although I am far being very educated about the Bible, I have many concerns about the justification by many to support gay marriage. It seems to me God made a man and woman with different plumbing to produce children. Two men together can not produce a child, nor two woman. Is this not why God made Adam and Eve?

Rick's comment: Genesis 2:18 tells us the original reason God made Eve for Adam, so that he would not be alone and lonely.

I believe true marriage is to bring togehter a man and woman together to produce children and each provide and protect these children until these children marry and continue the cylce of life.

Rick's comment: Marriage is honorable in all and the bed undefiled. Yet the purpose of marriage as given in 1 Cor 7:1ff. is to avoid fornication. Gays have the same needs in that area, to avoid fornication, and gay marriage helps us do that.

Gays can and do have children. In California, there are 37,000 children being raised by gay couples.


God made everything sinful that would disrupt this life cycle such as divorce, unfaithfulness and homosexuality. The Ten Commandments are all laws meant to preserve the existance of mankind and it's survival. What I see are people trying to interpret and rewrite the Gods words to justify their sinful desires which will destroy something very sacred, the marriage of man and woman.

Rick's comment: With all due respect, you heteros are doing a first rate job of destroying marriage all by yourselves. Your horrendous divorce rates, your divorced and remarried and divorced and remarried pastors and deacons and church elders and Sunday School teachers do more to destroy the sacred institution of marriage than gays will ever do. Do you agree?

Mar 27, 2013
God:Man
by: Jose

Man is created in the image of God, not the other way around. The bible are like Gods instructsion on how we are supossed to live. The bible does not condone homosexual acts. It is not that complicated, unless you are looking to justify homosexual behavior.

Rick's comment: Jose, thanks for your comment. It wouldn't hurt you at all to do some reading and study on this issue. We are gay and lesbian and bisexual and transgendered Bible believing Christians. We work hard to NOT take verses out of context because the anti-gay crowd has done that to us so much that we are tired of it.

Mar 27, 2013
lol really i don't judge
by: me me me me

what i find funny here is what does it say about casting the first stone? as i remember no sin is greater or worse than another sin. so in theory, your sins are just as bad as you say homosexuals are. And if homosexuality is so bad why are priest always being in trouble for molesting boys? you never hear them molesting a girl.

king james (which has a bible that many follow) used to publicly brag about his homosexual acts. the bible is more of a guide how to live and people take from it what they feel. if you read the bible and find hate, what does that say about your soul? and he's right when the bible was translated it wasn't done exactly right. just like translating words today from one language to another things are changed because one word in english might not use in another language.

god didn't translate the bible, man did! does the bible say man is perfect? i'm gonna tell y'all like i tell every other religious person that's sinning. when you are judge by the one true judge, i hope he takes mercy on your souls and understand it's not his sheeps fault its the hateful teaching you're taught. it's so easy for people to use the bible for hate instead of love and peace like its meant for.

Mar 29, 2013
Rick your Misleading
by: Anonymous

I can't help to comment on your discussion. you are misguided and blinded by your eagerness to be accepted. GLBT have been respected of who they are but not to the extent of accepting them to Holy Matrimony. it is clear to the text the that Jesus only mentioned MAN AND WOMAN. The question cannot weight the truth of what Jesus is saying and even you cannot redefined His words. It is Clear God Created man and woman When He said "In the beginning" He did not included GLBT because he knew the uniqueness of the two. that in the beggenning that is what God created.

Mar 29, 2013
You can't overcome the plain meaning of the text.
by: Anonymous

I know my comments will not be printed.

First, Jesus is a Hebrew man, his name is Yeshua.

Secondly, He IS the Passover Lamb and celebrated Passover, Hannukah, Feast of Tabernacles etc as those are pictures of Yeshua the Messiah.

Thirdly, When you are reading in the "Old Testament" that homosexual relationships are considered to be an abomination, you are reading Torah, and Yeshua is the Torah made flesh. The plain reading of these passages shows you that Yeshua taught, that marriage is between one man and one woman, God hates divorce and so on means what it says. He did not allow polygamy either as He said that as well.

Fourthly, Yeshua loves you and is ready to heal you, he has all the power and his work is finished, all you need to do is believe.

Fifthly, if there is anything I read here about hatred is the Hatred of Yeshua and his words, because is that not what it is all about? Not about you and me, but about eradicating all followers and knowledge of the man without sin, the passover lamb, the holy and righteous one blessed be He? I will tell you I won't ever follow your authority, your righteousness is not good enough for me. I want a relationship with the Holy One Of Israel Yeshua the Messiah.

Sixth, did you know that in the First Century, people were looking for the Lion of Judah to wipe out the oppressors, and received the Suffering Servant who died and was resurrected. And now in the last days they are looking for the kindly suffering servant, but will receive the Lion of Judah, who is warrior. Not a baby lying in a sukkah, or man nailed to a cross, but a kinsman avenger and redeemer. As for me and my house we stand for the Whole of the Torah which is the both the old and the new.

The new testament is after all a news report of the first appearance of the Messiah that was for told in the torah, prophets and the writings. And for those of us who have an education, you will NEVER be able to overcome the plain and simple meaning of the text.

Rick's comment: I agree with a lot of what you said. I am washed in the blood of the Lamb and have received Jesus as my Messiah and Savior from sin and hell.

I disagree with what you said about homosexuals. The topic in the Old Testament was temple prostitution, not two gay guys or two gay gals falling in love and building a life together as a couple.

You said God did not allow polygamy. I believe the Bible proves you wrong on that issue. God made provision in Torah, Deuteronomy 21:15-17, for inheritance rights of children in polygamous marriages.

God also affirmed polygamy as godly and honorable in 2 Samuel 12:7-8 and 2 Chronicles 24:1-2, which I hope you will take time to read and meditate upon.

I don't want you to follow my authority. I DO want you to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11, who "searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so."

Mar 29, 2013
Quit kidding us Rick
by: Anonymous because it really does'nt matter

It is obvious now that Rick is playing some game with us. No one, and I mean no one can be as blind as Rick is letting on to be. It is not possible he can't see the plain truth of the bible that homosexuality is plain wrong, Unless of course, he does not want to see, and if he is not playing some game, then obviously he does'nt want to see the truth of God. He just wants to go on gratifying his sinful nature and therefore continues to try to make the bible say something other than it does, problem is, he even believes his own misinterpretation of scripture.

No matter what anyone tries to point out to him he will not see it, he has become blinded to the truth and therefore cannot see it. I know now we all have just been wasting our time commenting on what is plain. All you will get in return is some smart alec remark if you say something Rick does not agree with, why waste your time?

Cry out to God Rick and ask him to give you eyes to see, but first you have to want the truth as only God sees it, not as you see it. No point in smart mouthing what I am saying, but then again, that seems to be all you have left, you have ran out of other options that don't hold water. Like your favorite one of saying, read such and such in context, well, we have Rick, and you are wrong. It is you that needs to do more reading.

Rick's comment: Hide your identity so you can criticize me? Accuse me of being blind but you've presented no in context arguments to support your views. Par for the course.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for one of you spiritual saints to come up with a decent in context argument to support your views because blue is not my color.

Oh by the way, the game I am playing is: Be a Berean! Please read and memorize Acts 17:11 and do what it says. The Bible makes an amazing difference in your life if you read believe and obey it in context. Are you a noble Christian?

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Mar 31, 2013
Who shot John?
by: Jim

All I know is, there is a whole lot of who shot John on this web site. I am looking for just one verse, sentence, chapter or anywhere the Bible says it is just fine with God that two men or two women may get married. I am not saying God disapproves of gay marriage, I am just saying show me where God says it is alright with him. Make it in five words or less, that should be enough words to tell me chapter and verse.

Rick's comment: I'm not sure if you are being facetious or if you just make it a habit not to think. Perhaps this link will help you figure it out.

Is there any evidence of an actual gay marriage in the Bible?



Apr 01, 2013
Weak argument at best
by: Anonymous

Sorry but your argument is weak (aimed at Jim and Who Shot John, I believe -Rick). If the 'norm' back then were as it is today where men live and raise children with men and women with women then it would have included gays. Gays do procreate by adopting unwanted children and giving them love and raising them. A pretty holy act if you ask me. As far as your 'sinner' view, I really doubt Jesus would consider them so if their hearts are full of LOVE. Hello, broaden your heart and mind.

Rick's comment: We get far away from the truth if we try to impose our 21st century views on ancient biblical cultures 2000 to 4000 years ago. These pages may be helpful to understanding how it was back then.

http://www.gaychristian101.com/are-there-any-same-sex-couples-in-ancient-history.html

http://www.gaychristian101.com/is-there-any-evidence-of-an-actual-gay-marriage-in-the-bible.html

http://www.gaychristian101.com/Gay-Marriage.html

Apr 03, 2013
WAKE UP
by: Anonymous

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BEING A GAY CHRISTIAN...SO WHATS THE POINT OF JESUS HE IS THE ONE WHO DELIVERS YOU OUT OF SIN. HE TOLD THAT WOMAN WHO WAS COMMITTING ADULTERY YOU ARE FORGIVEN AND SIN NO MORE. GOD DOESN'T LIKE SIN PERIOD. IF THERE IS A SUCH THING AS A GAY CHRISTIAN THEN THERE ARE OTHERS WHO CAN CALL THEMSELVES AN OPENLY FORNICATING CHRISTIANS. YOU'RE IN CHRIST FOR HIM OR IN SIN ON YOUR WAY TO HELL POINT BLANK. NOW THATS DOESN'T MEAN US CHRISTIANS DON'T FALL SOMETIMES BUT IT DOES MEAN JESUS CAN DELIVER US FROM OUR DARK WAYS. LIKE HOMOSEXUALITY, THAT IS NOTHING BUT A DEMON ENTERING YOUR BODY OR INFLUENCING YOU AND YOUR FLESH WANTING IT. IF YOU FAST AND PRAY THOROUGHLY SEEKING GOD WITHOUT TEMPTING YOUR SELF FOR 40 DAYS OR MORE AND ASK JESUS TO REDEEM YOU FROM WANTING HOMOSEXUALITY OF ANY KIND HE WILL DELIVER YOU.

IF YOU ARE A GAY CHRISTIAN THEN OTHERS ARE FORNICATING CHRISTIANS, ALCOHOLIC CHRISTIANS, AND SO ON.

JESUS SAID YOU EITHER LOVE THE OTHER AND HATE THE OTHER YOU CAN NOT LOVE SIN OR GOD AND LOVE THEM BOTH

JESUS DOES SAVE SOMETIMES SOME OTHERS INS TAKE A LITTLE LONGER TO GET RID OF..

HE SAVED ME FROM FORNICATION, CURSING, ETC. JESUS HEALS AND SAVES YOU JUST HAVE TO REALLY WANT IT AND SEEK HIM. AND AVOID TEMPTATION REPLACE IT WITH PRAYER LOVE FOR GOD AND HIS WORD ALSO PRAY FOR THE FEAR OF GOD.

Rick's comment: Posted exactly as we received it.

Apr 03, 2013
WAKE UP PART 2
by: Anonymous

SOME OTHER CHRISTIANS MAY HATE YOU. BUT WHAT I HATE IS YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUS BEHAVIOR AND ANTICS.
HOMOSEXUALS OR SHOULD I SAY SINNERS IN GENERAL THINK GOD WILL EXEMPT YOU FROM HELL. WHAT ! YOU ALL THINK YOU CAN CONTINUE PRACTICING IN YOUR SIN AND NOT GO TO HELL OR DEAL WITH ANY CONSEQUENCES.
IF THATS THE CASE I WOULD NOT NEED TO STOP BEING A PRACTICING HEATHEN OR FORNICATOR, AND THE PEOPLE FROM THE BIBLE LIKE PAUL WOULDN'T HAVE TO STOP KILLING CHRISTIANS CAUSE HE CAN SAY HE IS A OPENLY MURDERER CHRISTIAN. HE JUST KILLS THE ONES HE DON'T LIKE OR PETER OR ANY OF THE DISCIPLES COULD JUST CONTINUE IN THEIR SINS AND STILL BE A SO CALLED CHRISTIANS. NO YOU ARE LIVING A LIE FROM HELL THE DEVIL HAS DECEIVED YOU. IN FACT THE THE BIBLE SAYS HE WILL DECEIVE THE ENTIRE WORLD AND JESUS SAID THE DEVIL IS THE FATHER OF LIES.

YOU DON'T LOVE GOD IF YOU DID YOU WOULD REPENT MEAN TURN YOUR BACK ON YOUR SINS AND ASK THE HOLY SPIRIT TO REFORM YOU MAKE YOU A NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST JESUS LIKE THE BIBLE SAYS TOO.
NOBODY HATES YOU . YES WE DISLIKE YOUR LIFESTYLE. BECAUSE JESUS DISTILLED IN US TO DISLIKE OUR SINS AND AS WELL AS OTHERS SINS. WHEN A CHRISTIANS SINS IF THEY ARE A REAL CHRISTIANS THEY WILL FEEL CONVICTED SHAMEFUL GUILTY BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT INSIDE THEM MADE THEM REALIZED THAT IS A SIN AND IT IS NOT GOOD REPENT. THEY WON'T LIKE IT CAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT INSIDE WILL CHANGE THEIR MIND ABOUT THAT SIN AND MAKE THEM REALIZE THATS OF SATAN. CHRISTIANS WANT TO BE LIKE CHRIST NOT SATAN.

Rick's comment: Posted exactly as we received it.


Apr 03, 2013
WAKE UP PART 3
by: Anonymous

FOR ONE. YOU ACTUALLY THINK GOD WILL HATE ALL OTHER SINS BESIDES YOURS OR LET YOU IN HEAVEN WITH YOUR SIN WITHOUT REPENTING OR BEING DELIEVERED. WHAT THE HEAVENS!!!! IF YOU GET IN HEAVEN BEING A PRACTICING HOMOSEXUAL. OTHERS SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN IN HEAVEN AS WELL . LIKE THE THIEVES, MURDERERS WHO NEVER STOP DOING THEIR WRONGFUL SINS. OR THE FORNICATORS WHO NEVER GOT MARRIED. OR THE ABORTIONISTS. OR THOSE WHO MARRIED OR HAD HAD SEXUAL RELATIONS THEIR RELATIVES WHEN GOD SAID DON'T DO THAT.
YES, YOU GOT IT BACKWARDS. JESUS WILL NOT LET YOU IN HIS HOLY VERY NICE SIN FREE HEAVEN AS BEING A PRACTICING HOMOSEXUAL SO CALLED CHRISTIAN CAUSE THAT IS OXYMORON. YOU CAN'T ROLL WITH THE DEVIL AND GOD ALL THE TIME AND LOVE BOTH.
JESUS SAID IF YOU ARE LUKEWARM HE WILL VOMIT YOU OUT. IF YOU ARE A BABY CHRISTIAN THAT MEANS YOU NEED TO GROW DILIGENTLY IN JESUS TO KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG AND LIVE HOLY.
JESUS SAID TO BE SET APART. BE HOLY. SO YOU CAN KNOW AND LIVE WITH HIM ON THIS EARTH. LIKE I SAID US CHRISTIANS ARE NOT PERFECT BUT ...
YOUR DEDICATION SOUL SPIRIT AND HEART MUST BELONG TO EITHER GOD OR THE DEVIL. OTHERWISE YOU WILL GO WHERE SIN GOES TO GOD'S FOREVER BURNING TRASH CAN CALLED HELL, OR SHEOL TO WAIT FOR JUDGMENT THEN YOU BURN IN THE LAKE OF FIRE FOR ETERNITY FOREVER SEPARATED FROM GOD'S GOODNESS LOVE GRACE AND MERCY.
SIN IS NOT PERMITTED IN HEAVEN SO UNLESS YOU CHANGE YOU WILL GO WHERE SIN GOES WHICH IS HELL.
HELL IS NOT A GOOD PLACE SO REPENT AND FORGIVE AND LIVE FORGIVEN WITH GRACE SO WE CAN SEE YOU IN HEAVEN.

Rick's comment: Posted exactly as we received it.


Apr 04, 2013
Yes Jesus did cover this topic.
by: Anonymous

Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. So obey everything they teach you, but don't do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else. (Matthew 23:1-3)

LAWS OF MOSES - COMMANDMENT SOURCE

++++++ Laws of Marriage ++++++
122. To marry a wife by means of ketubah and kiddushin. Deut. 22:13

123. Not to have relations with women not thus married. Deut. 23:18

124. Not to withhold food, clothing, and relations from your wife. Ex. 21:10

125. To have children with one's wife.Gen 1:28

++++++ Laws of Divorce +++++
126. To issue a divorce by means of a "get" document. Deut. 24:1

127. A man must not remarry his wife after she has married someone else. Deut. 24:4

Some Christians say that Jesus said to obey the Ten Commandments. But He said to obey the whole Law of Moses, not just the Ten Commandments. When Jesus says "commandments", He does not mean only the Ten Commandments as many people assume.

The two greatest commandments are part of the Law of Moses, but they are not from the Ten Commandments. When Jesus said "commandments", He meant the entire Law of Moses.

Many people put the word [Ten] in front of the word commandments in the New Testament. Jesus didn't say "obey the Ten Commandments by themselves", He said to obey the entire Law of Moses.

Leviticus 18:22 Do not lie with a male [i.e. homosexuality] as you would with a woman, since this is a disgusting perversion. This is the laws of Moses.

So... To complete this argument. Yes Jesus did cover this topic. Why should Jesus have to repeat every laws God set out? He shouldn't. Follow every law. The bible is the law and should be followed to the letter.

Rick's comment: Are Christians under law? No, absolutely not. You are putting out legalistic dis-information.

Apr 05, 2013
The law
by: Amy

Rick: You've willfully missed and changed the point of the above contributor. While you may not like your critics, the point the person is making is obvious.

While you believe you are under grace, you're also aware that grace is not intended for us to go on sinning.

Loving The Lord creates in us a spirit to avoid sin, and grow into more and more avoidance of sin.

That is the point of the above contributor, as well as the belief that same sex relationship are outside of Gods order, and outside of Gods will for us. When God wants something different for us than we want for ourselves, grace is not intended to give us the green light. That is spiritual immaturity.

Rick's comment: Amy, the Anonymous commenter's point was that Jesus said we need to keep all of the law, not just the Ten Commandments. I countered with the truth that Jesus kept the law for us, as us, in our place and therefore Christians are under no obligation to keep Old Testament Jewish law.

You and some other commenters keep attacking my integrity and my motives. No matter - I'll keep telling the truth so that gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals can be set free in Jesus.

Only by pulling verses out of context and assigning a meaning to the verses which the verses do not explicitly state can you and the previous commenter arrive at the teaching that being gay is outside of God's order and will for us.

Apr 18, 2013
setting people free
by: amy

Rick: There is a distinct difference between "setting people free" as you say; that is, sharing the good news of Christ, and leading people to believe it's acceptable to stay in our sin. This is stating the obvious.

The point of the contributer was that the law is still good. That's is all he was saying. Nothing more, nothing less. It is you who try and dissuade the issue. He was not making the point that Jesus gift doesn't matter. He was making a different point entirely. One that would be obvious for one with eyes to see and ears to hear. It is you who smokescreen.

As for Jesus paying the price, then it's clearly right under your nose that we don't go on sinning because of this great and precious gift.

Some people are truly persecuted because they share the love of Jesus. Some people are confronted because they are willfully in sin.

Rick's comment: Hi Amy. I note you are still lobbing false accusations at me while defending anti-gays who rip verses out of context to condemn.

You have misunderstood the law-fixated legalistic approach of some professing Christians who want to add works to grace. I get so many emails from law+grace types (who want to add in their own works, their own righteousness) that perhaps I recognize it more easily than you. We should never allow anyone to put a yoke of bondage upon us.

It may be time to read Galatians again and remind ourselves that we are not under law, that Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness, to everyone that believeth.

Apr 18, 2013
Plain and Simple
by: Riley, Michael

Homosexuality is demonic, plain and simple. Now Rick will say there is no such thing as demons and/or deliverance. But that is the demon in him that is talking.

Rick's comment: Hi Michael, you would be a wiser man if you studied more and insulted less. As a born again, witnessing, soul-winning gay disciple of Jesus Christ, I believe in devils (KJV) yet it may surprise you to discover that no born again believer can be demon possessed or devil possessed. I explain why on my page about deliverance ministries.

Apr 18, 2013
Nothing left
by: Amy

Rick seriously: Grow up. I've been kind. Kindness doesn't mean people say what you like, nor should they. You reveal yourself. No one is picking on you. We are grown adults here and this isn't a childhood playground.

You miss the point willfully and dissuade the issue willfully. No one can unintentionally miss the point as you do, so often. People do not have to agree on an issue to understand obvious points being made, and make progress in dialogue. It's impossible with you. You have your own agenda. That is a burden. Good luck.

Rick's comment: You're still questioning my integrity while insisting you've been kind. I wish you the best but henceforth I will not post any comments from you.

Apr 18, 2013
No he did not
by: Brandon

No, he did not. However, Paul did in 1 Corinthians 7:3 He states the husband should fulfill his "marital duties" to his wife. In verse 10 he says to the "married" and he goes on to describe the interaction between a husband and wife. You could argue whether or not people (homosexuals), I prefer to call them people, have a right to marry someone of the same sex.

However, I don't understand how you can say what something is not, unless you first define what it is? and does extending the definition of marriage, assuming it is between a man and a woman, open the door to polygamy? I think someone could argue that it would be discriminatory? I think I spelled that right.

Rick's comment: Brandon, the argument Ken Silva makes is based on absolute complementarianism, the belief that God will only truly bless a one man with one woman type of marriage.

That God blessed and affirmed polygamy, Deu 21:15-17, 2 Sam 12:7-8, 2 Chron 24:2-3, proves that God is NOT an absolute complementarian because a polygamous marriage is NOT a one man with one woman type of marriage.

If absolute complementarianism is NOT God's viewpoint, then it should not be our viewpoint.

If absolute complementarianism is not Biblical, then the foundation of the anti-gay marriage argument has crumbled away and does not support their anti-gay position. That is the point of mentioning polygamy.

Most anti-gay folk have read and studied so little and are so UN-familiar with the pro and con arguments that they cannot even understand the ramifications when absolute complementarianism is debunked.


I enjoyed reading your rebuttal and you have a generous knowledge of the Bible. It was written for our benefit, knowing the word should be the priority of every believer.

Rick's comment: Thank you for your kind words. I am in complete agreement - knowing believing obeying the written word of God in context should be the priority of every believer in Jesus Christ.

May 01, 2013
doing the devil's will
by: Linda

To argue so hard with so many words about having sex?

1 John 2:16 ESV - For all that is in the world — the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions — is not from the Father but is from the world.

2 Timothy 2:23-26 ESV - Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant[e] must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Rick's comment: When I got saved the Holy Spirit fueled in me a desire for God's truth. Jesus was all about God's truth, John 17:17.

Gays and lesbians are under constant attack from professing christians who are cultural christians, i.e., they have never really been saved. We are also under attack from ignorant Christians who really are saved but are too lazy to read and study their Bible, 2 Timothy 2:15.

This website exists to answer their scurrillous attacks with scripture in context and rightly divided. Many thanks for stopping by.

May 02, 2013
Scripture speaks for itself
by: Lyn

The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife I Cor. 7:3-4.

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me 1 Timothy 1:1-11.

Rick's comment: Excellent advice and absolutely true for heterosexuals. Yet for the 5% of us who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered, that passage does not address our needs.

Are you aware that the word homosexual did not become a common English word until the 1890s? Are you aware that there was not a word in the ancient Greek language with the semantic range of our modern word homosexual?

These links may be helpful in your search for truth.

Does arsenokoitai mean homosexual?

http://www.gaychristian101.com/what-words-could-paul-have-used-if-he-intended-to-condemn-homosexuality.html



May 10, 2013
I just found the caps key
by: Soli Deo Glory

FOR THIS CAUSE GOD GAVE THEM UP UNTO VILE EFFECTIONS: FOR EVEN THEIR WOMEN DID CAHNGE THE NATURAL USE INTO THAT WHICH IS AGAINST NATURE: AND LIKEWISE ALSO THE MEN, LEAVING THE NATURAL USE OF THE WOMAN, BURNED IN THEIR LUST ONE TOWARD ANOTHER: MAN WITH MEN WORKING THAT WHICH IS UNSEEMLY, AND RECEIVING IN THEMSELVES THAT RECOMPENCE OF THEIR ERROR WHICH WAS MEET. AND EVEN AS THEY DID NOT LIKE TO RETAIN GOD IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE, GOD GAVE THEM OVER TO A "REPROBATE MIND" TO DO THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE NOT CONVENIENT..

It is sad that a person so worthy to the Savior had his mind already reprobate. Please stop for a minute and study and analyse your own teology.

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-8.

Rick's comment: I can often tell where a commenter is doctrinally in this way.

1. Hysterical charismatics who disagree with me accuse me of being demon possessed.

2. Hysterical Calvinists who disagree with me accuse me of not being saved (reprobate). So you must be an hysterical Calvinist. Of course, with the new reformed craziness these days, you may be an hysterical charimatic Calvinist. SMH LOL.

By the way, disagreeing with each other on the issue of whether gay is okay does not equate to preaching another gospel.

I encourage you to read:

How can I get saved? and

What is justification by faith?

May 10, 2013
but I don't use the caps key all the time
by: SOLI Deo Glory

Stop labelling every single one that try to help as a anty-gay. Stop hiding your defects in the wrong doing all every bady else. We love homosexuals, but believed that Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow, Hebrew 13: 8. Being that He is God and the same that created us from the beginning, So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them ( Genesis 1:27) and it was not to have pleasure, but as it is explained in the next verse TO BE FRUITFUL, AND MULTIPLY and replenish the earth, and subdue it. DOES GOD OR JESUS MADE A MISTAKE AND HE HAS NOT CONTROL OVER HIS CREATION? IT WAS A MISTAKE THAT YOU ARE ON THAT BODY? BE VERY CAREFUL BEFORE YOU ANSWER, DUE TO AS FOR GOD, IS WAYS IS PERFECT: THE WORD OF THE LORD IS TRIED: HE IS A BUCKLER TO ALL THOSE THAT TRUST IN HIM (SALMS 18:30) I just extremely sad about all of this, have you thinking about the live that you are having? you are a woman and the body of man, but you are still a man, even though you act like one, you know that you are still man. it is sad, but if you really accept him, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Even your sexual preferences. He loves you, and just surrend to Him and In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths, Prob 3:6. In conclusion, christians love gays, they are not antigays; they just love and obey the Lord of the WHOLE WORLD. HE LOVES US ALL, JUST SURREND TO HIM FOR A MINUTE!!!!!!!!

Rick's comment: You're a bit confused kiddo, a bit confused.

May 22, 2013
no evidence
by: Anonymous

There are plenty of examples of heterosexual marriages in the Bible, yet a distinct lack of homosexual marriages. To say that homosexuality is ok just because the Bible may not say it's not is a dangerous way of thinking. Imagine if the federal government chose to do what they wanted on the basis of the Constitution not saying they can't do something. Just thought I might point out that flaw in logic.

Rick's comment: That would be an excellent point IF that was my logic. How odd that almost to a man, all of you Anonymous commenters ignore what I've written, do not even try to answer the question biblically and then, conclude I am wrong. Can anyone say, low information christian?

May 23, 2013
female is made for male alone
by: Anonymous

Some persons just argue what they don't know, from the beginning a woman was made out of man in other for them to be reunite to become one Gen 2:21-25.even common sense will tell yoou that man to man are not compact able. know the truth and let the truth set you free.love God

May 23, 2013
Anonymous???
by: amy

I continue to wonder about those who remain anonymous? This has been addressed with no answer. Why do you that comment, and seem to feel so strongly in your conviction, choose to remain anonymous?

In my opinion, you look ridiculous and can't be trusted. I challenge any "anonymous" "christian" to give a good solid explanation for this.

Rick's comment: Amen to that Amy!


May 23, 2013
insanity
by: Anonymous

Suggesting Jesus was a supporter of homosexual marriage is not a controversial position, it is the position of an insane person, someone who is missing any balanced intellectual sense of process or mental structure. You can dismiss Jesus but only an insane idiot would turn Jesus' words into this.

Rick's comment: Oh goody, another insulting gem from the pearl-clutching parade of low information christians who, oddly enough, are afraid to associate their name with their beliefs. Please be careful dismounting from your high horse.

May 25, 2013
Same Sex Relationship
by: Paul

Though scientific research shows that there is evidence of sexual relations between same sex in animals, I think it is irrational to compare us humans (capable of reasoning) with animals in justifying a same sex relationship.

Rick's comment: Of course, I do not make that comparison on this website.

A sexual intercourse between same sex will not be able to produce an offspring, you can absolutely take that in the biblical context in contrast to technology today. Remember the tower of Babel? With humans wanting to reach God with their technology, what happened? That story is in the bible as a reminder for us.

Sure, same sex couples could adopt a child but that could affect the child psychologically in the long run. What will you teach the child when he begins asking questions about his parents? What happens to that child growing up in such environment?

Rick's comment: They turn out as normal as children raised by opposite sex parents.

What happens to same sex couples that are married? Their "true" family is only composed of two; They can't really have an offspring where they can really call their own, how sad is that?

Rick's comment: Lots of gay couples have biological offspring; others have adopted children.

God does not condemn gays, what God condemn are gays that perverse sexual matters like having intercourse with the same sex. The bible even condemn cross-dressing (look it up in the New Testament).

Rick's comment: Hey Paul, please click on the cross-dressing text link for helpful info.

I don't need to memorize verses in the bible, I only need to be knowledgeable of its content.

There are decent gays who stands by what the bible teaches. It is alright to have a relationship with the same sex as long as you do not go overboard like cross-dressing, or anything lustful.

Rick's comment: I hope you will do a lot more reading and study Paul. Your conclusions are flawed.

May 26, 2013
Where do you get this passage from?
by: Anonymous

"To avoid fornication, everyone (except those gifted with celibacy) should have an orientation compatible partner." Which bible edition says ORIENTATION COMPATIBLE PARTNER?

Rick's comment: The verse you cite is 1 Cor 7:2. Every Christian I know believes that it means, heterosexual men should have a female partner or, heterosexuals should have a partner matching their sexual orientation.

My paraphrase simply points out that truth for those of us who are not heterosexual, that we too should have an orientation compatible partner.

You seem to disagree.

Are you of the belief that heterosexuals should have an orientation compatible partner - someone matching their sexual orientation - but gays should not have an orientation compatible partner - someone matching our sexual orientation?

May 27, 2013
Once again which version?
by: Anonymous

My question was which Bible version uses the word orientation in 1 Corinthians 7:2 and suggests other than man and woman?

Rick's comment: My answer pointed out that the word, orientation, is my paraphrase. These links explain my thinking.

About 1 Cor 7:2

Is sex in a committed relationship sinful?


May 27, 2013
To amy and rick
by: Anonymous

May 23, 2013
Anonymous???
by: amy

I continue to wonder about those who remain anonymous? This has been addressed with no answer. Why do you that comment, and seem to feel so strongly in your conviction, choose to remain anonymous?

In my opinion, you look ridiculous and can't be trusted. I challenge any "anonymous" "christian" to give a good solid explanation for this.

Rick's comment: Amen to that Amy!

To amy and rick - because "your name is optional" per the way the comment section is set up. How do people know you are really amy or rick? How do people know your names aren't fictitious e.g. anonymous? I pose this question with rick in it for his enthusiastic response to your comment. If you believe in this so strongly rick, since its your site, why don't you delete the anonymous option? Is the log out of your eyes that you can judge ones anonymity? Just stick to the merits of the argument.

Rick's comment: You can't fix stupid, even with duct tape.

Jun 01, 2013
Partners to match orientation
by: starfish00

And also, partner choice is NOT based on developed orientation but biology based as our heterosexual bodies testify to that.

Rick's comment: You are wrong on so many levels. Your task for the next four weeks is to read and study on this issue until you have real biblical facts to contribute to the discussion.

Jun 01, 2013
Pride
by: starfish00

"Before anyone can accept your, homosexuality is sin argument, you must prove it using scriptures in context.

You didn't even attempt to do that because you know that no verse of scripture in context, says what you believe about homosexuality.

Your hate the sin, love the sinner argument is incredibly unloving. You cannot separate your heterosexuality from who you are as a person. If I claim to love you but hate your heterosexuality, you would agree that is quite stupid. It's impossibleto loveyou asa person but hatewho you areasa person.

In the same way, we cannot separate being born homosexual from who we are as people. When you claim to loveusbut hate who we are as people, you are really claiming to hate us.

Will you alwayscondemn your gay brothers and lesbian sisters in such a thoughtless unloving unBiblical way?"

You see that is the problems with gays, they are so obsessed with sex that its becomes what they base thier identity on. Noyone is thier sexual "orientation". Youre not actually gay because you arent born that way. There isnt any proof in the world. Gay is a moral issue not a physical one. What you are saying is that people are what they want to have sex with. Thats gross reasoning and frankly, stupid, at best. But what can you expect of those who lust strange flesh or who lust sexually in general all the time? You dance around context and refuse to see the obvious. The entire Leviticus chapter 18 deals with sexual conduct exclusively. So yes, Leviticus 18:22 is clear as day when it says what it states.

Romans 1:32- Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 1:30 Backbiters, HATERS OF GOD, despiteful, PROUD, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Its really disgusting how prideful you are and you only take after your father lucifer. Why can't you just admit that the Bible condemns you? You wont have an excuse on judgement day thats for sure. Youre not a genuine follower of Christ because your actions and fruits speak otherwise, so why so you care to justify yourself? Whats so bad about admitting youre wrong? Stop spreading messages of false hope. Youre no better than the false prophets in Jeremiah who told the people one lie while God said something completely different. You have a lot of blood on your hands and I hope you are prepared to face punishment for leading others astray. Your own orientation is your own fault. You fed the idea in your heart until it was so out of control you couldnt stop it yourself. You need to be born again and given a new mind until then dont call yourself a christian.

Rick's comment: More oat bran in your diet could make a dramatic difference in your attitude.

Jun 01, 2013
Re: You are wrong on so many levels
by: starfish00

LMAO. Prove it. Again the frame for partner choice is biology. Nothing you say will change that-ever. Your state of mind is not an excuse to go against biological mandated and really, God's standards. Sexual orientation/preference is NOT exclusive to gender. The same way a person with species dysmorphia who thinks they are a golden retriever has no business choosing a real dog for a partner because of their sexual preference or "orientation" or beliefs about "who they are" as that would be beastiality which is also forbidden. Same with pedophiles, necrophiliacs, and all other paraphilias. What you find sexually exciting is NOT the standard for choosing a sexual partner/companion as the point of sex is reproduction...

God defines who we are-not ourselves. We cannot create truth/reality, we can only discover it. As doing the first would be blasphemy and playing God.

Rick's comment: A man who rejects truth becomes his own jailer, forever locked in the prison of ignorance.

Jun 01, 2013
Re: A man who reject truth becomes his own jailer
by: Anonymous

You just described yourself.

Jun 01, 2013
re: Justification by faith
by: starfish00

Justification is not by faith alone FYI. Its goes hand and hand (http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-relationship-between-faith-and-works) with good works, not evil ones (like this website) like promoting lust, fornication and sodomy. Love is NOT sexual otherwise everytime I'd tell my relatives I loved them it would be incest-another sin.

Biblically love and charity are interchangeable as they mean the same thing: selfless sacrificing giving out of care. Lust however is sexual and sex is not charity its a) a job to procreate and b) motivated by lust. Youre actually recieving when you have sex - (carnal) pleasure, that is and a baby when done normally.

The Bible states that the spirit is at flesh with the war and they cannot coexist.

Galatians 5:16-17 KJV - This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

All sexual unions (gay or not) are driven by lust. You are the one who is confused as lust and love are exact opposites. Love is spiritual and a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Sex is NOT it is a fruit of the flesh. By identifying as gay you are lusting against the Spirit and what it wants and Leviticus' strict sexual moral laws. And yes those still do apply as we are now Spiritual Israel but not yet in the Holy City. There are 3 laws: moral, ceremonial, and civil. The last 2 do not apply but the moral laws are timeless.

Galatians 5:19-22 KJV - Now the works of the FLESH are manifest, which are these; Adultery, FORNICATION, UNCLEANESS, LASCIVIOUSNESS, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, HERESIES, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the SPIRIT is LOVE, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

You are doing worse harm than athiest gays could ever do which is why this website fills me with indignation. Your arrogance and pride dont help matters.

Rick's comment: "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man by logical argument.” - William McAdoo

"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a belief he was never reasoned into." - Jonathan Swift

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." Proverbs 26:4

Jun 01, 2013
re: does not address our needs
by: starfish00

"Yet for the 5% of us who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered, that passage does not address our needs."

Who the hell do you think you are? God does not need to cater to YOUR needs. He is God he does not need to cater to anything he hasn't provided provision for especially for "gay marriage" an institution that doesn't exist and frankly isn't even acknowledged. Does your arrogance know any bounds? We are made in God's image not the other way around. Twisting God's Word is an attempt to make God out to be as conforming to YOUR filthy image. Meaning you are covertly rendering God a homosexual which is BLASPHEMY. Hetero marraige reflects HIS image exclusively no matter how much you kick, scream and cry.

Genesis 1:27 KJV - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Notice how it says male AND female. Both are needed, together to make one image-God. If they were whole they would be complete within themselves and not be in need of complimentary sex organs and would be some kind of androgyn. They do in fact compliment hence becoming ONE flesh, as if each of them did have distinct whole reflections specific to either gender, God's image in himself that would mean God has 2 images and as he is ONE God that is not possible. Oh and Jesus did not get his complimentary concept from Plato LMAO as this concept originated with God himself before time existed and was recorded in the OT BEFORE Plato. Marriage completes God's image. And since God did not single out man or woman as solely comprising his image doing so would be idolizing one gender which is one of the root sins of homosexuality, by the way.

Rick's comment: There's not enough air pushing through the windmills of your mind.

I’m not saying you’re stupid. I’m just saying you have really bad luck when it comes to thinking.



Jun 01, 2013
Hey starfish double zero
by: starfish00

Rick's comment: I've deleted most of your hysterical angry rants. Get a grip sister! Venom and vitriol are not healthy.

Insults won't actually answer any of my points so I'll take that as concession.

Rick's comment: No dear - your points are answered on this 800+ page website. It would be to your advantage to get familiar with this info so you don't further embarrass yourself.

Jun 02, 2013
Hate the sin love the sinner is unloving
by: Anonymous

Yeah so I guess that means God is unloving. That is blasphemy as God is love and denying this would be denying God reducing your "faith" to mere ashes. Your fake christianity just blazes through the facade hiding utter contempt for God's word.

You need help as you cannot seen to seperate your sexual lust preferences from your persona.

Rick's comment: It is summer now and the sun is approaching its zenith. May I encourage you to always wear a ball cap when you're out in left field? Many thanks.

Jun 02, 2013
to starfish00
by: amy

Starfish:

You seem very convicted and have a clear understanding of many of the reasons God is not for same sex relationship. It seems to be a very serious issue. So serious that you can't refrain from "laughing my ass off...lmao." It has been my experience in life, that when people use that sort of language, and seem violently angry while laughing in a mocking way all at the same time, I start to seriously doubt your conversion or any love for the good Lord at all.

Furthermore, you clearly have no love for Rick, nor any good motives here exept to be violently angry and hostile. I'm wondering why violently angry, hostile, people, hang around here? Why not move on? What is your motive? It clearly is not love so what is your motive?


Jun 02, 2013
Validity of scripture
by: Anonymous

I am not sure scripture answers these questions. The NT was put together by men seeking to put their own agenda on the table and putting forward a particular vision of Christianity to create unity in the early church. They ommited many scriptures,e.g gnostic gospels, the gospel of Thomas.

Rick's comment: There are excellent historical reasons why early Christians did not view any of the gnostic gospels as part of inspired scripture. First, all of the gnostic gospels were written after the canon of scripture was closed. Second, Jesus was not in any way a gnostic or a Nazorean.

Really it is our own conscience (led by God) that determines what we do and one day we will know if God approves or dissaproves. It is not up to us to judge others anyway.

Rick's comment: What you have expressed is a common but false view about how the canon of scripture was formed. These links provide insight which points you to truth on this issue.

Rick's comment: What did Jesus believe about the Bible?

What should I believe about the Bible?

What do Christians believe about scripture?

The Bible and Christians.

Dude, do you really believe the Bible is true?

Jun 06, 2013
My apologies to Rick
by: Aaron Saltzer

I just wanted to apologize to you. I thought you changed the marriage quote from Genesis, which wasn't even spoken by God but Moses? Yet, Jesus does say that God made us "male and female"from the beginning.

Though I apologize for misunderstanding, it is obvious from your post that you chose to change 1 Corinthians 1:7-9 to try to support your claims, which is really concerning to me. I wanted to believe everything you put on this website, bc I don't want to be ashamed of who I am any longer. But when I see Christians who are gay, who go to the point of changing scripture to support them, it's just proof that there are false prophets out there. And how do I know the rest of the info you have on here isn't false?

Even when numerous attempts were made to point out your error, with people who quoted 1 Corinthians 1:7-9 as it is, you still have not seen the error that you made. Please don't change scripture, Rick. Unless it says what you said in the original language, but I doubt it. You're not proving your point to anyone doing that. God bless you.

Rick's comment: Aaron, I hope you will keep reading and studying. I have not changed scripture anymore than a preacher could be accused of changing scripture when he explains what it means.

You are confusing explaining scripture with changing scripture. Please do keep reading and studying and the Holy Spirit will make it plain to you. Many thanks.

Jun 08, 2013
1 Corinthians 7
by: Samson

The passage forementioned doesn't say anything about sexual orientations. The whole Bible does not say anything about that. The Bible never mention us as Gays, heterosexuals, lesbians, whatever you want. Those are just stamps and discriminations that we've started to use quite recently.

Rick's comment: And I have pointed out that basic fact in my book and on this website.

The passage is clear. It speaks of each man and each woman. Not heterosexuals or homosexuals. everybody, in general. Believing that the apostle want to say that each man/woman should choose his partner according to his sexual orientation would bring me to kindly ask you to show me some proofs:

1. that in the Bible, Old or New testament, the concept of " sexual orientation" is mentioned, so that we can assume that the apostle implied it in these passage. Or that in that time being either heterosexual in one hand or homosexual in the other hand was so obvious that the apostle didn't feel the need to explicitely mention those " orientations"!!

Rick's comment: God addressed scripture to a heterosexual audience (about 95% of humanity) because it would be silly to keep saying heterosexual and homosexual. Just from a literary standpoint, that would not make great literature.

God trusted that our common sense and our love for each other, John 15:35, would lead us to the truth that the 1 Cor 7 principle, that everyone (as you say) needs a committed partner to avoid fornication, would apply equally to gays. We need a partner compatible with our orientation just as a straight man needs a partner compatible with his orientation.


2. if the idea of a homosexual union/partnership/marriage was openly accepted in his time, so that the apostle could even consider recommending it to the Saints.

Rick's comment: Gay unions were accepted in some places where Paul ministered the gospel, the Greek city states for example. Please do more reading on this website. In particular, click on any NavBar button under, What The Bible Says.

I expect to be mocked like some of the latest commentators, but I would really appreciate it if you could respond to me with respect. But however you respond (or choose not not), the time I spent surfing on your website was highly educational and I am grateful for that. Greetings from Norway.

Rick's comment: I'm thankful to have readers in Norway - lovely country and lovely people!

Jun 14, 2013
here is God's answer plane and simple
by: micmicbee

if you read it you know it, and if you do not twist the words as you like doing then here is your plane and simpel answer if GAY people go to heaven. NO

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men. - micmicbee

Rick's comment: No micmicbee, that is not God's answer. That is a sloppy mistranslation.

The Greek text which Paul wrote NEVER said anything about "men who have sex with men." Paul invents a new word to use in 1 Cor 6:9, based on the wording of Leviticus 18:22 and especially 20:13 - arsenos koiten.

That new word, arsenokoitai, was understood from 1400 BC on through time to the lifetime of Paul in the first century AD, as a reference to cult prostitutes or shrine prostitutes or temple prostitutes. The other word in 1 Cor 6:9 which is incorrectly translated as "men who have sex with men" is malakoi. Malakoi is never used in the Bible to mean homosexual.

micmicbee, you are not studying your Bible. Instead, you read a verse in an untrustworthy translation and assume you know what it means without any study. Please get serious about your Bible study.

Jun 21, 2013
Love the sinner, hate the sin
by: Brian

No fear here. No hate. And I absolutely agree many times homosexuality is put up on a pedestal of being a worse sin. It isnt. It pulls the sinner away from God like any other sin (although the Bible is also clear about the danger of sin of the flesh, homo or hetero).

We can argue about scripture all day for gay marriage but the act of homosexual sex can't be argued. It's totally straightforward. It is a sin. And we all know that the Bible is very clear on sex inside of marriage (ie enjoy! See all of Song of Solomon!). So, since we are all trying to really understand what scripture is getting to, lets all agree, homosexual sex is a sin, and marriage is the place to have sex. If we are fair, then, we can safely say homosexual marriage is wrong.

The bottom line is, a person is never more creative than when defending his own sin. Jesus hates sin. All sin. And Jesus loves all people. Yes, ALL people. Homosexual or straight.

Rick's comment: Sad but typical Brian. You assume being gay is a sin. You ask us to assume the same without going to the Bible to see if your interpretation is in context or even truthful.

You need to do a lot more reading and study brother.

Jun 22, 2013
Wow.... I cannot wait to hear what God has to say
by: BJ

Homosexuality is a SIN. How can you not see and understand this from scripture? "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. "(1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 18-20 NIV)

You can take a particular scripture from the Old or New Testament and flip it any way you like, but you will never change what God has ordained as a legitimate Godly marriage. It is troubling to me that after several thousand years people think they can change or re-interpret God's word and God's stand on this issue. It is defined as a sin all throughout scripture from the old to the New Testament and you cannot miss it unless you are spiritually blind. REPENT OF YOUR TRANGRESSION AND TURN TO GOD. HE LOVES YOU AND NO ONE IS JUDGING YOU. But to say that homsexualiyy is right is against the very bible you say you believe in. That is a contradiction. Adulterers, idolaters, drunkards and homosexual offenders are all said to be SINNERS. Stop trying to change our view and change your way of living. God is not pleased!

Rick's comment: It is troubling to me that after four thousand+ years of polygamous marriage being just fine with God in the Old Testament, people think they can change the meaning of marriage to match their modern personal views.

I'm not sure if you anti-gay folks are incorrigibly obtuse or willfully ignorant or perhaps just too lazy to study your Bible. It may be a combination of those things.

Jun 23, 2013
About Polygamous marriage
by: Aaron Saltzer

Idk why you choose to ignore these people, Rick, but Polygamous marriage, was in The Old Testament, clearly, and there is no polygamous marriages in the New one.

Rick's comment: Aaron, I think you are missing the point. If there is even one exception to absolute complementarianism (the view that the ONLY marriage God will bless is a one man with one woman marriage), then complementarianism is not absolute. If it is not absolute, then God can and does bless other kinds of marriage. For example:

King David was a bisexual polygamist who spent fifteen years in committed relationship with Jonathan. In addition to Jonathan, David had at least eight wives whose names are listed in the Bible.

In addition to those wives, God gave David all of King Saul's wives, 2 Sam 3:2-5, 13-14, 11:27, 12:7-8, 19:5, 1 Chron 14:3. This was possible because those relationships were culturally appropriate back then. In addition to his many wives, King David also had concubines because those relationships were culturally appropriate back then, 2 Samuel 5:13. You may remember that Abraham, the friend of God, also had concubines with whom he produced children, Genesis 25:1-6.

In the context of Old Testament family values, where polygamy and concubinage were culturally accepted, the Bible does not view polygamy and men with concubines as adulterers or immoral.

We know that polygamy, a man having more than one wife, was affirmed and blessed in the Old Testament, according to Genesis 4:19, 16:3-4, 25:1-6, 29:20-28, 30:4-9, Deuteronomy 21:15-17, 2 Samuel 12:7-8, where God Himself affirms polygamy and 2 Chronicles 24:2-3, where the Holy Spirit affirms polygamy by implication.


Polygamous marriage was not mentioned in the New Testament, bc of what Jesus said.

Rick's comment: In the New Testament, polygamy is ONLY FORBIDDEN for bishops and deacons, 1 Timothy 3:2, 12, Titus 1:6. Culture and local law determines if polygamy is practiced these days.

Also, I've been hearing that Polygamous marriage had consequences as well, which you choose to ignore. Also, polygamous marriage does not line up with homosexual marriage, bc it is still heterosexual.

Rick's comment: Again, you are missing the point. Please take time to carefully reread the article.

Stop trying to use the "blessing" of Polygamous marriage to support your answer. It will get you nowhere. Even if the bible has been misinterpreted on this homosexuality, it will never change what Jesus thought a marriage was: a MAN and WOMAN. All the marriages mentioned the bible, whether polygamous or monogamous were always heterosexual.

Rick's comment: The Bible addresses the heterosexual majority, 95% vs. about 5% who are GLBT. Yet the Bible also includes the touching story of David and Jonathan's 15 year intimate partnership.


Jun 24, 2013
David and Jonathan
by: Aaron Saltzer

Where do you get your facts from that Jonathan and David were in a 15 year committed relationship? There is nothing in the bible that says they were.

Rick's comment: Hi Aaron - the info is in my book. My J and D chapter is 54 pages long and contains the facts upon which I base my conclusion.

Also, David and Jonathan's relationship can easily be rebuked as homoerotic, considering the culture and history in biblical times. As well as The Centurion and his servant, Ruth and Naomi, and any other gay marriages or relationships that people claim there are. Why is it that if there was a gay relationship in the bible, it was either between eunuchs, or a man and a eunuch. News flash, eunuchs were transgender, not men that were anatomically whole.

Rick's comment: Aaron, you are so confused about eunuchs. You are a classic example of one who rejects facts instead of embracing truths you have not previously learned. As long as you reject truth, you will remain in darkness.

Also, Jesus never mentions why a woman should not marry a man. Does this give us any indication that there was no excuse for it?

Rick's comment: That bit of illogic is something you regard as important? Aaron, you are sometimes your own worst enemy. Your unhappiness springs from embracing the self-hatred you've been taught instead of exploring truths beyond the narrow confines of your life experience.

There is peace and joy, happiness and blessing for you as a saved gay man loving and serving God. Please stop defending the false teachings about gays that you grew up with.

Jun 25, 2013
Judgment Day
by: Aaron Saltzer

I think we'll all find out the truth on Judgment Day. I hope you're right in your research, along with the other "pro-gay" people, and you all get into heaven.

Rick's comment: How can I get saved?

What is justification by faith?

What happens when you get saved?

I'm saved so why do I still struggle with sin?

Jun 25, 2013
From the superstitious scapular crowd
by: Anonymous

Ken: After reading the response to your statements and support, it is quite obvious that gay men will just create their own reality behind the Gospels. I guess they do it to justify their life and lifestyle.

If this isn't proof that you have to give up trying to lay out the facts to a group who can't see anything but justifying their own lifestyle, then I don't know what is.

I'm sorry that there are gay men and women in the world. But there are. That's a fact. That's reality. I think they should have the same rights to live with and love the men they love. They were born that way. It's their natural attraction. But they should live in a union, which is certainly not a marriage.

They want to be accepted into society like they were born normal. They weren't. I'm sorry for that, but it's their cross in life to bear.

But for people who weren't born gay, trying to present a reasonable argument about gay marriage is a complete waste of time. They won't listen. And by arguing and fighting, all they do is turn more and more people against them. More gay kids get picked on and abused because of their stubborn actions. More gay teens commit suicide. They think it's the opposite. It's not. They are putting a spotlight on it and the truth is revealed int he schoolyards of America, where teens don't have to be politically correct like the television news reporters, who present anything but the truth.

To the gay men and women in the world, if I was in your shoes, I would just try to live my life as happy as possible, keeping my sexual orientation to myself, with or without a partner - whatever your circumstance. You are God's children, but you have been given a much tougher cross to carry. I'll pray you find the way. - Catholics of the Midwest

Rick's comment: I cannot make up stuff like this folks.

Jun 25, 2013
Make up stuff like what?
by: Amy

Make up stuff like what? And who are the "folks" you are speaking to? I'm confused. Almost no one who contributes here agrees with you Rick, and almost everyone would identify with and agree with that last contribution?

Rick's comment: Amy, the crowd is usually wrong. "The job of every Christian is to determine the course of the age in which he lives and then, go against it." - Dan Truax, missionary to Africa, around 1971

Make up stuff like what?

1. Gay men creating our own reality. That's a snarky way of saying we're biblically wrong without advancing even a rudimentary context based argument from the Bible.

2. That gay men justify our own lifestyle. That from a Catholic whose church spent over $1 billion dollars paying off lawsuits to children molested by Roman Catholic priests with a pedophile lifestyle.

3. That gay men are not amenable to facts. No one has laid out any in context facts, choosing instead to offer the same lame out of context arguments. There are 500+ pages of carefully sourced historically accurate facts on this website alone.

4. Denying us equal rights under the law. "They want to be accepted into society like they were born normal."

5. Blaming the gay community for the assaults and suicides and bullying perpetrated against gay teens. He believes gays standing up for our civil rights causes gay teens to commit suicide.

6. We should keep our sexual orientation to ourselves. Not that he keeps his heterosexual orientation to himself. Not that anti-gay heteros keep their sexual orientation to themselves. He wants to force us back into the closet of fear and discrimination.

7. He'll pray we find the way. In other words, against psychology and psychiatry, against social science experts, against everything the Bible says, in context and against our human and civil rights, he still believes what his pedophile protecting church tells him, that gays are intrinsically disordered.

Jun 27, 2013
What a Great Site
by: Anonymous

I have spent the last 2 hours reading this site (actual research) and also the comments (sad). It surprised me to hear the same thoughts that I have heard in churches, like a broken record. As a church secretary, I had heard a lot, most of it based in fear.

Your site opened my eyes, I realized how wrong I was saying, "love the person, hate the sin." It sounds nice and Christian, but logically that is impossible. Also demeaning to the person and makes me sound like I am right and you are damaged.

Thank you for that. Sometimes we Christians use the Bible as a sword to kill our fellow Christians.

I hope someday, people will once again view Christianity as love. They will know us by our love for each other.

Rick's comment: Thanks for your kind and discerning comments. On this website we are all about the truth of God, in context. Even the unsaved gays I know are often more honest than the professing christians who comment here. In any case, we'll keep telling the truth till Jesus comes back.


Jun 30, 2013
Defending Polygamy
by: GJM

Defending Polygamy are we? Polygamy only differs from traditional marriage by degree. In the act itself, it is still one woman, one man. The homosexual act is what is sinful. If homosexuals formed a Civil Union but remained celibate no one would object. Civil Unions on the whole do not last as long as traditional marriages which is saying something given the rampant divorce rates today. Read up on research on the children of gay couples. There are a lot of problems there.

Rick's comment: You are a blizzard of false information. You've spent too much time reading the lies of the anti-gay crowd. On this website, we deal with truth, not lies told by anti-gay kooks.

Jul 01, 2013
The Bible means what it says
by: Jeff

Rick, since the default on "Your Name" is Anonymous, and since it says "Your Name" is "optional", perhaps people on here, including you, should not be so quick to demean those who don't take the time to put in their name.

Now, for the meat of the matter. When God created the heavens and the earth, He said that everything was good. However, He later (nobody knows how much later) said is it NOT good for man to be alone. Therefor, He created a suitable helper for him. This perfect helper was not another man but a woman. This perfect helper was made to be able to procreate with him. This perfect helper was to be his soul-mate. I've read all you've said on the subject, but I still come back to this is what God set up in beginning. This is His ideal. Go back and read Genesis chapters 1 and 2.

I pray you may believe the whole counsel of God and put away the "sin that so easily besets you".

Rick's comment: Hi Jeff - a bit snarky since you don't know me. The Bible never says that Adam and Eve are God's ideal or that God will not bless any other marriage relationship. You guys read that into scripture and then toss it back to us as if scripture really said it. Your opinion about what scripture says is not always the same as what scripture actually says.

And you've managed to ignore everything I wrote in the article. I guess you guys don't want any information that contradicts your opinion.

On the Anonymous thing - No, there are some really mean-spirited professing christians out there who prefer to say nasty things as long as they can hide in the shadows of Anonymity. I delete many comments because they are so dumb or so vile or both.

Jul 02, 2013
Men alone
by: Matthew

“And the LORD God said, ‘It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.’"

Men alone are not enough for Gods intended Holy Union.

Rick's comment: Men alone are not enough? Sez who? The Bible doesn't say that. Jesus didn't say that. The verse you cited doesn't say that.

Aug 09, 2013
Get over it
by: Carl

Dude just get over your self and your own beliefs. That's right! Your own beliefs. All that is happening is the Bible being taken out of context by you. Everyone that has quoted scripture (in your mind against you) is doing so to have the truth heard, instead of your own interpretation of what it actually says.

It does say God made man and woman to leave each others parents and become one flesh. And it also says how God created a helper suitable for man.

No where in the Bible does it mention anything about same sex marraige. It always says man and woman or husband and wife. God thought people would be able to figure out what that meant without an anatomy lesson.

So if you want to keep believing what you do, join the mormons. The are fine with dudes on dudes on dudes. But if you would like to quote the Bible, quote the Bible as it is without your lies fed in.

Rick's comment: LOL Carl, you're a hoot!

Aug 19, 2013
confused
by: Anonymous

I like how people look at the story of sodom and gommorah as being destroyed for homosexuality. Makes no sense that god would send angels to warn of destruction based on sexual perversion only to have lot father children to his own daughters. And i like how the blame is placed only on the daughters for he didn't know what he was doing.What a crock. As a man,he may have been drunk enough not to care at the moment, but he would have to be "excited and with it" enough to function properly. And i can find no scripture where any one sin is anymore unforgiveable than another. In gods eyes, sin is sin. Where does it say there are levels of hell according to the sin commited? I'm strait and married to a wonderful woman and don't agree with homosexuality but i also don't know how it feels to be that way. I don't condemn those who are. We'll all answer for our own lives in the end.

Sep 22, 2013
Whats up with all the books and websites
by: Todd

How many heterosexual Christian 101 websites are they? I found zero. If being homosexual isn't a sin what's up with all the websites?

Rick's comment: Because so many professing Christians lie about what the Bible says and because so many professing Christians try to use the power of government to enforce their hetero lifestyle on gays, websites like this exist.

What must I do to be saved?

Nov 02, 2013
Stop trying to make the bible say what it isnt saying just to have an excuse to live the way you want.
by: brian

Homosexuality is a sin and no matter how much anyone who is gay trys to make it right is wrong biblically. The bible says that when a man is born again(saved/christian) he becomes a new person, the old person he or she was has passed away. corinthian 5:17.

A lot of people who say they are christians are not born again, because if they were, the holy spirit inside of them would asure them of Gods perfect will and let them know what wrong and right was. If a person does not repent (turn away) from that sin or sinful life style is not born again. leviticus 18:22, leviticus 20:13, 1 timothy 1:10, 1 corithians 6:9 Romans 1:26-28 speaks against homosexuality.

Rick's comment: No Brian, when read in context, those verses are talking about unsaved pagans who used same sex rituals to worship false gods and goddesses. Gays and lesbians are not what God is talking about in those verses.

God is the same god he was yesterday as he is today. he doesnt change even if the world view changes. James 1:17.

FELLOW BELIEVERS IN CHRIST DON'T ARGUE WITH ANYONE WHO WISHES TO NOT ACCEPT GODS WORD FOR THE TRUTH In ORDER TO HAVE AN EXCUSE TO LIVE THE WAY THEY WANT TO LIVE.

Rick's comment: Brian, it helps to remind ourselves that ALL scripture must be read and understood in context. We cannot rip verses out of context and insist they mean something which they did not mean in context. Handling the Bible that way is not honest.

If you are truly seeking God's truth, please click on any button on the NavBar under, What The Bible Says. Many thanks for stopping by.

Nov 14, 2013
Rick read for yourself sir
by: bfj

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NIV - Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Rick's comment: The NIV is notorious for changing its wording and 1 Cor 6:9 is a good example. Their phrase, men who have sex with men, is not a translation. The Greek text simply does not say that. Here is the Greek-English text if you'd like to see what it says.

Greek-English text of 1 Cor 6:9

Here is the meaning of arsenokoitai, the Greek word which is so poorly translated in the NIV. Hope this is helpful in your search for truth.

Nov 18, 2013
1 Corinthians 6 regarding homosexuality
by: Abraham

Rick, Check your OWN source, the NIV is not the only translation that rebukes homosexuality, for instance here's the New Living Translation, a translation that I own:

1 Cor 6:9 "Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality"

Scripture is clear, and the view of the most respected modern figures in Christian literature and theology such as CS Lewis (Mere Christianity) to Timothy Keller affirm that marriage is between one MAN and one WOMAN.

I encourage those rebuking the false information on this site to be "always full of grace, seasoned with salt" Col 4:6

Also I encourage you Rick to read the works CS Lewis and Keller and others, good luck.

Rick's comment: Abraham, just for the record, I have read CS Lewis and Tim Keller. Lewis was not a Bible scholar. He was instead, a scholar of medieval literature. I believe your estimation of C.S. Lewis will be changed after reading A.N. Wilson's excellent, C.S. Lewis, A Biography. Bible believers who constantly cite Lewis as an authority will be appalled to discover how Lewis lived, talked, drank, etc.

It seems to me that you are unfamiliar with the material I present on this website about the historical meaning of the Greek word, arsenokoitai. Because I have carefully sourced the information I present and because I have used world-class scholars, it seems to me that you and others who disagree, need to find substantive reasons to support your views, instead of assuming I have not read widely or instead of assuming that people who translate modern versions of the Bible got it right.

Vast quantities of information exist if you're willing to read, study, compare and consider. Not one shred of historical evidence from the first century AD exists to support your view that Paul intended to condemn gays and lesbians in 1 Cor 6:9. If Paul did not intend to condemn gays and lesbians in 1 Cor 6:9 in the mid-first century AD, then that verse did not, over the last 1950 years, morph into a condemnation of gays and lesbians, which means that your understanding of that verse is dead wrong.

May I kindly suggest that you need to do more study on this issue?

Nov 25, 2013
Blown away
by: McKenzie Myers

Rick, your response to Ken here is problematic. You assume that he is being condescending and attack his points with ramblings that don't make sense. You even twist Scripture and say it teaches to have an "orientationally compatible partner" when it really says for "each man to have his own wife and each woman her own husband." Nevermind the issue we're discussing. I'm blown away.

In the most loving of ways I mean this. You should re-examine your tone in what you have made to be a rebuttal in a debate instead of a productive contribution in a discussion. I will sit down and talk with a supporter of gay marriage if they can be respectful and use Scripture CORRECTLY to support their position. Sir, you fail to display Christ's gentleness in this.

Rick's comment: Hi McKenzie. May I encourage you to carefully reread the article, plus click on and read all of the text links, before making a decision? I deal with facts and with what the Bible says, in context. It is not honest to take verses out of context, as Ken does, then misapply the out of context verses and insist the out of context verses means something they did NOT mean in context. Can we agree on that?

"Ramblings that don't make sense?" Is it possible that you only skimmed the article, instead of reading it carefully? Is it possible that if you took time to read and digest the arguments I made, you would discover that they do indeed make sense?

As to whether or not I display the gentleness of Christ, many young post-moderns confuse confident statement of truth with not displaying the gentleness of Christ. May I gently encourage you to read Matthew 23 out loud to yourself?

Jesus addresses religious people and their false teaching. He is not gentle in His condemnation of false teaching. Wisdom compels us to answer some people one way and other people another way, Proverbs 26:4-5.

Dec 24, 2013
Why does one have to be right?
by: STEPHEN JANKORD

Good believers of the Bible should understand that God speaks to all that will listen. We must all get along with love and understanding not judgement and hatred. Let there be one God and one judge and let us be comfortable in our life style that we choose. Be it gay or straight, life is to short to argue over words and life styles. I think God would want us to focus on bigger things in life for example the poor the hungry the homeless and other people that Jesus talks about. May the peace of the Holy Spirit surround you this Christmas season with a joy you have never experienced before in your life!

Rick's comment: One has to be right because truth is important to God and to us as people made in the image of God. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." - Jesus in John 17:17

The Bible has the truth about Jesus and here is the real reason for Christmas. "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners..." - 1 Timothy 1:15. "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

Here is how to get saved by receiving Jesus Christ as your Savior this Christmas.

Dec 30, 2013
Genesis
by: Rainn Essman

I'm sorry but where in Genesis 1 or 2 does it mention polygamy? It may have been accepted after Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden, but it's not mentioned in Genesis 1 or 2. According to you "When Jesus cites Genesis 2:24, by no means did Jesus or Jewish men understand Genesis 2:24 as prohibiting polygamy."

Polygamy was not mentioned there, only after their fall, and after Cain kills Abel, since sin begets sin. Adam and Eve were no longer in their state of innocence as they were in Eden. So their- Jesus and the Jewish men's-"understanding" of the acceptance of polygamy between man and woman could not have come from those verses from genesis

Also where in 1 Corinthians 7:1-9 does it read "orientation compatible partner." your grasping at straws with your arguments against what "anti-gay Christians" believe. "principle of partnership"?

Rick's comment: Hi Rainn - thank you for demonstrating the absolute complementarian viewpoint and the a-c mindset so perfectly.

"If it's not in Genesis 1-2, then we refuse to consider it."

Genesis 1 and 2 also does not tell us that an Adam and Eve type of marriage is the ONLY marriage relationship God will bless. You folks read that into the text because the text does not say it and then try to foist that view off on us AS IF the text said it. Sorry Rainn but we're not buying it.

About 1 Cor 7:1-9 - you believe that a woman for a man and a man for a woman equals an orientation compatible partner. Yet when we point out that for a small percentage of the human race, an orientation compatible partner would be a same sex partner, you insist that the text doesn't use those precise words.

It will do you good to reread the article and attempt to see viewpoints other than your own. You're missing the boat on this topic, which means you are misinterpreting scripture. Many thanks for stopping by.


Jan 16, 2014
divide and conquer
by: joe mama

they set traps - divide and conquer - create arguments - set man against man black vs white, gay vs straight, muslim vs christian etc.

let the man with no sin cast the 1st stone

when you remove the tree from your eye you will be able to remove the speck from your brother's eye

rethink

Feb 05, 2014
Translation
by: Lance

"To avoid fornication, everyone (except those gifted with celibacy) should have an orientation compatible partner."

What version of the bible is this found?

Rick's comment: Hi Lance - are you saying that Paul is not talking about an orientation compatible partner in 1 Cor 7:2?

Feb 05, 2014
Re: Translation
by: Lance

"To avoid fornication, everyone (except those gifted with celibacy) should have an orientation compatible partner."

What version of the bible is this found? I am not stating, I am asking a question. In your article, you placed quotes around the above statement. Who is this quoting and from what bible version? Is the quote your interpretation? If so, which bible version? I am trying to understand how one arrived at the interpretation quoted.

Rick's comment: Hi Lance - the quote paraphrases a position, a viewpoint about the meaning of 1 Cor 7:2. It is not a quote from any version.

May I encourage you to think about these issues? The anti-gay crowd believes that one should marry an orientation compatible partner. For them, that is an opposite sex partner.

For gays, an orientation compatible partner is a same sex partner.



Feb 06, 2014
Re: Translation
by: Lance

Who is the source of the quote? I am interested how they came to interpret the definition of husband and wife to be non gender related (Husband being a male and a wife being a female). I need much stronger evidence by clear context that this could have been even remotely possible.

Rick's comment: I believe you are missing the point. When any heterosexual gets married, (s)he marries an orientation compatible partner. For a hetero man, that is a hetero woman.

When a gay man gets married, an orientation compatible partner for him is another man. When a lesbian gets married, an orientation compatible partner for her is another woman. No one is trying to redefine husband and wife to be non-gender related.


The term anti-gay means what? That one is against the person or against the sin or both? That one hates the person or hates the sin or both? I hate the sin and love the person as my brother or sister as God commands. This is a difficult thing for some of my close gay friends to understand and some now refuse to associate with me because they don't believe one can separate the act from the person or they cannot accept that I hate the sin even though they know I love the sinner. I have literally been told that to hate the act is to hate the person and it is irrational to believe otherwise. I even tried to use the analogy that if my son were gay, I would still love him, but hate the sin. Of all the sinners out their, I am chief. If I hated folks because of their sin, I would have no family or friends.

Rick's comment: It is impossible to separate you from your heterosexual orientation. It is equally impossible to separate us from our homosexual orientation.

Sexual orientation is innate - we are born with it - it is not something we chose. Sexual orientation is part of who we are as people. By obsessing over our sexual orientation and insisting that you love us but hate our sin, you betray your bigotry or your ignorance.


I refuse to contort the meaning of the bible to accommodate my sin. I am divorced and have since remarried and I repent for this as I am the one that caused it through my infidelity. I repent for this and know it will always be a sin because I cannot make it right and will be judged for it.

Rick's comment: Lance, do you know for sure that you are saved?

When you get saved, you are justified by faith and ALL of your sins are forgiven because when He died on the Cross, Jesus paid for ALL of your sins and God the Father accepted His payment.

Feb 10, 2014
One Flesh
by: Stewart

How does the author of this site deal with the rest of what Jesus said. Is this not the union and hence gives us the context of the whole?

Rick's comment: Excellent point Stewart. In the Bible a marriage is when flesh joins flesh, therefore Jesus cites Gen 1:27 and 2:24. A marriage is not the civil or religious ceremony as some believe today. Nor is a marriage the engagement although that is how ancient Jews regarded it.

In biblical times, there were three classes of people - men, women and eunuchs. What differentiated eunuchs in ancient times was that they did not usually reproduce. In Roman culture, some born eunuchs who were slaves were compelled to reproduce so that their master could increase his wealth via the children who grew up as slaves.

In modern times as civil unions and gay marriage became legal, some gay couples do reproduce via in vitro fertilization or via surrogacy or via adoption. In Matthew 19 Jesus dealt with first century culture as He found it. Hope this is helpful Stewart.

Feb 17, 2014
One Flesh
by: Stewart

Thank you for the open dialogue, I have tried to have an open dialogue on other sites and my post never got on the site... How do you conclude that God commanded this type of union for every other possible situation.

Rick's comment: I do not understand your question. I have not concluded that God commanded this type of union for every other possible situation. That is your opinion, based on the presuppositions you bring to the text, not based on what the text actually says.

I am going to avoid the artificial means that you quoted that technology has introduced so as to stay on point. Woman was compatible to man to fulfill this union.

I have posted my comments not to be combative, you have been faithful to reply to all these other questions and hope that these things will not allow anyone to a hardened heart or to have a spirit of pride.

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh.

Rick's comment: Stewart, it will be helpful for you to read these pages. God bless in your search for truth.

Biblical Complementarity?

In Genesis 2:24, did God intend to prohibit same sex marriages?

Where did the modern idea of complementarity come from?

How to be saved and KNOW it FOR SURE.



Feb 17, 2014
One Flesh
by: Stewart

"Sorry if I miss understood you when you defined marriage as the joining of the flesh... Sorry if I took "Therefore Shall" as a command when God is speaking. Let me rephrase my question.

How did you come to the conclusion from the part of Genesis 2:24 "they shall become one flesh" to apply to Gay "Marriage" the joining of the flesh, where the two become one?

Rick's comment: We know there are exceptions to one man with one woman marriage being God's only plan for humanity in at least two ways.

1. Only 44 verses after Genesis 2:24, we see the first polygamous marriage mentioned in the Bible in Genesis 4:19. Polygamy is not one man with one woman. It is one man with two or more women. God made provision for polygamy in Deu 21:15-17 and sanctified polygamy as good in 2 Samuel 12:7-7, 2 Chronicles 24:2-3, Job 27:15, Jeremiah 31:32, etc.

2. Celibacy is an exception to Adam and Eve style marriage being God's only plan for humanity. If there are two exceptions, is it possible there are more than two? Must God list every exception or does common sense encourage us not to read into the text what it does not say - the absolute complementarian position.


I guess I don't want to assume this. What is the one flesh? A child? The two become one?

Rick's comment: One flesh is not having children. It is the sexual union, which may or may not produce children. Sterile couples or elderly couples have sex but cannot reproduce. In plainer words, sex in marriage is for many reasons besides reproduction.

I want to know what you think about this, was the woman in Genesis 2:24 made complimentary for Adam to fulfill His Plan?

Rick's comment: Yes but to read into Genesis 2:24 that everyone must replicate the Adam and Eve marriage is to believe something scripture does not say. Absolute complementarians then teach what scripture does not say as if it is absolute truth. That is the tactic of the anti-gay marriage crowd. Their unscriptural presuppositions are served up as absolute truth, and even though scripture does not say it, they proclaim their opinion as if it were absolute truth.

Feb 26, 2014
Matthew 19:8
by: J

Anyone that is saying, "there isn't scripture that says a person CANT do etc." should have people turning heads.... I'll remind you of the serpent saying otherwise to Eve that she would not die and become like God.

When I was reading the article I kept expecting to come across verse 8...I find it VERY convenient that you left this verse out. Many people have had their hearts hardened. More importantly Jesus states that "_______" from the beginning has not been this way. Divorce, polygamy, homosexuality. It was a man and woman. The blank is "in context" for divorce. However, anything else that was not the way in the beginning is still FACT.

You create your own way. You are in rebellion to God. You saying homosexuality is ok is the equivalent of you saying "not your way God, but mine." I tried my way for a long time. And anything contrary to God is rebellion. SIN IS LIVING YOUR WAY, NOT HIS. Don't miss this, Christian.

There is no such thing as a saved alcoholic, smoker, homosexual, fornicator, compulsive liar etc. if you have truly been set free from sin, how can you allow yourself to be content in saying I can drink til I'm drunk everyday of the week? No, when you stumble, when you fall, when you step on your laces and trip, do you not tie your shoes before getting back up? As such, any person who tries to walk with God with untied shoelaces will repeatedly fail. You cannot walk while living in sin. Bound up your laces and sin, and then walk with God.

Stumbling on a rock and tripping on shoelaces are two different things. The rock wasn't in your control. Your shoelaces though are. Anything contrary to how God made marriage in the beginning goes against his authority.

Rick's comment: J - You are so well versed in missing the point.

1. Jesus made exception for eunuchs, to the Adam and Eve marriage paradigm by saying "All men cannot receive this saying." How did you miss that?

2. Jesus made distinction between castrated eunuchs and eunuchs who chose to be eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven and eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb. How did you miss that?

3. Being alcoholic, fornicator, smoker, compulsive liar - those are behaviors. They are not characteristics someone was born with. Being gay is an innate characteristic. According to Jesus, it was not chosen by the individual "so born from their mother's womb." How did you miss that?

4. Your final sentence - 'polygamy is not how it was from the beginning' yet God blessed polygamy, 2 Samuel 12:7-8 and polygamy is not how it was at the beginning. How did you miss that?

Feb 26, 2014
You can't serve yourself and God
by: J

1. Those who are to be single, through birth, by mankind, or for the Kingdom of Heaven, is not related to this conversation. Eunuch does not mean gay. But let us play with your logic. If eunuch does imply gay, the verse would be translated:

For there are eunuchs (gays) who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs (gays) who were made eunuchs (gays) by men; and there are also eunuchs (gays) who made themselves eunuchs (gays) for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it. "

Rick's comment: Dr. Robert Gagnon is the leading Christian anti-gay author of a 520 page book, The Bible and Homosexual Practice, and a prolific speaker and author of anti-gay articles. Here is what he admits in writing on his website.

"Probably "born eunuchs" in the ancient world did include people homosexually inclined..." You obviously have never studied the issue, have not read any of the scholarly literature on the issue, and therefore, you don't know what you're talking about.


This is what Paul was talking about too. Not everyone is gifted with celibacy. And this is what Jesus meant: not everyone can be celibate, some desire to marry. 3. Being alcoholic, fornicator, smoker, compulsive liar - those are behaviors. They are not characteristics someone was born with. Being gay is an innate characteristic. According to Jesus, it was not chosen by the individual "so born from their mother's womb." How did you miss that?

You do recognize these as behaviors, sinful behavior. As such, one can choose to stop these through Christ's power. Everyone is born with a flesh that desires to sin. Just as one is "born" into lusting for women, others are "born" to lust for men, animals, pleasures of the flesh. It's your choice to come and get right with God. I'm not advocating gays become straight, but that gays give up this desire.

Unfortunately, those who are so deep in their passion for sinning are given over to it. If someone's life revolves around proclaiming their homosexuality, sex, or sin, then you are not to inherit the kingdom of heaven. Corinthians 6:9-11. You can't live in sin. You are a sinner, you will sin, but living in sin, (drunkards, whores, liars, homosexuals, fornicators) these cost you salvation. Don't fool yourself that you can live in sin and die by Christ. It's your choice to stop sinning. God gives the power to.

Rick's comment: Saved people cannot lose their salvation. I encourage you to study justification by faith.

I came here and gave you truth so that you could test yourself. Gods word is open for interpretation as long as everyone else is open. I am open to the interpretation you provided but it has a fallacy.

Feb 26, 2014
Truth?
by: Amy

Rick: The issues you described as behaviors and claim they are not part of who we are is utterly wrong and entirely bias on your part. A person who is an alcoholic is pre disposed to that (born that way) and it is a disease. That is entirely out of a persons control. With support and prayer a person can control, and/or manage, and/or even stop the behavior of drinking. In the same way we are able to control whether we have sex or not. We are pre-disposed (born with) to all of the so called "behaviors" you mention, to varying degrees. We battle our flesh in this life.

How typically arrogant and self-righteous of you to use science, psychology, and the Bible to support your particular propensities, but disregard every other human on the planet who struggles with their own predispositions. Your pride has no limit.

Rick's comment: Amy, there are two recognized sexual orientations, heterosexual and homosexual. Both are innate, normal and unchangeable. On the other hand, no one is born alcoholic or a smoker or a fornicator or a compulsive liar from his mother's womb. That is the point.

A genetic predisposition is vastly different than an innate orientation.

Feb 26, 2014
No evidence that being gay is innate
by: amy

Rick: There is no evidence supporting your claim of what you are calling innate... There is enormous differing outcomes on this issue, and determining "born this way" via science is nowhere near what you attempt to suggest.

Rick's comment: Amy, facts in the real world contradict your view. For example:

1. Exodus International, after almost forty years of ministry, closed their doors in 2013 and went out of the ex-gay business. Exodus President Allen Chambers admitted that 99.9% of the thousands who went through their ministry did not change their orientation, including Allen himself.

2. John Smid led the largest Exodus affiliated residential ex-gay ministry for 22 years. He finally left that ministry and proclaimed that he had never seen anyone change their sexual orientation. He is now living and serving God with his male partner in Texas.

3. Dr. Robert Gagnon is the leading anti-gay author of, The Bible and Homosexual Practice, and a prolific speaker and author of many anti-gay articles. Here is what he admits in writing on his website.

"Probably "born eunuchs" in the ancient world did include people homosexually inclined..."

4. Jesus is clear that being gay is innate, in Matthew 19:3-12. Gays and lesbians and transgendered people are part of the category called born eunuchs.


I wasn't born this way. It happened as a result of trauma. Being involved in AA, I know a lot of alcoholics who would beg to differ on your outcome.

Rick's comment: Amy, rape and sexual abuse do not make someone gay or lesbian. Those events can sometimes cause one to question their orientation but they do not cause one's sexual orientation.

In cases where someone is traumatized due to rape or sexual abuse, the best course is counseling with someone experienced at providing that counseling specialty.

I have spoken to a few lesbians who were happily married to men but who later went into long-term lesbian partnerships. They did believe they were not born lesbian. Many people view people in those situations as bisexual, instead of innately gay or lesbian.

May 06, 2014
lil rick would defend sleeping with animals
by: pitt

rick, If u truly read d bible, u'd knw dat there's no where gay life was allowed. Gay is wrong in God's sight. And i know very soon some people will start sleeping with animals and u'd back defending them - wondering which part of the scripture u'd twist.

Rick's comment: Hi Pitt - sorry you're having such a bad day. Here is what I believe about beastiality.

Why beastiality is always wrong.

May 06, 2014
It Is Not a Sin To Be Gay
by: Lance

"Exodus President Allen Chambers admitted that 99.9% of the thousands who went through their ministry did not change their orientation, including Allen himself."

It is not a sin to be gay. It is the act of sodomy and fornication between those of the same sex that is a sin.

There is hope for gay Christians and that is to repent for these acts and to be celibate. Just as sodomy is a sin for heterosexuals, they must repent for these acts as well. This is my belief until proven wrong in scripture.

Rick's comment: Hi Lance - your views are not based on scripture rightly divided and in context to start with so insisting that someone must disprove your opinion from scripture, is odd. It is impossible to reason a man out of a belief he was never reasoned into.

I know of many sex addicts that have chosen celibacy rather than feed there addiction. Some are gay, some are atheist, and some are Christian. Many of them pedophiles. As with any addiction, it is not the volume of addiction, but the impact of it.

How should Christians consider pedophiles that were born that way? If they marry a child are they living in sin? I am only interested in how scripture addresses this, apart from our laws that forbid it at the state and federal level.

My view of pedophilia is that they be celibate and repent. There is a serious problem in the US regarding this issue. How does God consider them if they feel they were born that way or maybe imprinted on the orientation after being groomed and molested?

Rick's comment: Equating and comparing being gay to being a child molester is an illogical dead end because they are not analogous. Pedophilia is a paraphilia, NOT a sexual orientation. No one is born with "an orientation" of being a child molester but there are two sexual orientations, heterosexual and homosexual.

Do you love us enough to hear our heart?

May 07, 2014
Gay Pedophile Comparison Not Made?
by: Lance

Rick's comment: Equating and comparing being gay to being a child molester is an illogical dead end because they are not analogous.

At what point did I make this comparison? I did not mention the sexual orientation of the pedophile.

Rick's comment: Hi Lance - you said that it's not a sin to be gay but gays must be celibate and then you mentioned that pedophiles need to be celibate, analogizing being gay and being a pedophile, i.e., both should be celibate.

Jun 05, 2014
Concern for the church
by: Jim

Thank you Rick for your discussion. I do not agree with you but I am listening to your point of view. In the discussion about Mathew 19 there was the mention about eunuchs being born that way. Jesus recognized them, did not condemn them, and pointed out that they among others could not receive or live out his teaching about marriage being a union of male and female. Do you not believe that the male and female marriage is the ideal and is intended for the multiplication of the human race?

Rick's comment: Hi Jim - I believe male-female marriage is the norm since about 95% of the human race is heterosexual. Yet anecdotal evidence indicates gay marriage is just as sanctified, just as blessed by God as hetero marriage.

Divorce is a failure of this ideal. Those not meeting this ideal are still loved but their acts should not contradict this ideal. Why can't those in homosexual partnerships, the divorced, those multitudes that can't quite sell everything they own to follow Jesus be in the church together as sinners but maintain male and female marriage as the ideal of God's will? To insist otherwise becomes destructive to the church, particularly outside of the American culture. What is more important, the well-being of the church or your objectives for homosexual as bi-sexuals.

Rick's comment: Because saved gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered people are already part of the body of Christ, their wellbeing equals the wellbeing of the church.

Jul 21, 2014
False teacher
by: Ericka

I have thoroughly read the refutations and the arguments, I have read your Biblical reasoning' and I have come this conclusion.

You are the perfect example of why I will NEVER trust ANY church. You are a false teacher, period. Shame on you.

Rick's comment: Hi Ericka - interesting that you call me a false teacher without specifying any false teaching.

Jul 31, 2014
Translation Question
by: Tyler

What translation are you using when you quote 1 Corinthians 7:2?

Rick's comment: Hi Tyler - the "quote" paraphrases a position, a viewpoint about the meaning of 1 Cor 7:2. It is not a quotation from any version.

Sep 17, 2014
Wondering
by: Steve

Therefore a man shall leave his mother and father - Genesis 2:24. How did Adam have a concept of a mother at that point? Maybe someone who created him was a woman.

Rick's comment: Hi Steve - Thanks for the good question. Adam had no concept of a mother at creation. Moses wrote Genesis 2:24 about 2600 years after God created Adam.

Genesis was utterly different than other religious writings back then precisely because there were no female gods and no mother goddess. What must I do to be saved?

Sep 17, 2014
Lesbians
by: Steve

In ancient Hebrew culture lesbianism wasn't a big deal since it didn't threaten virginity. Homosexual males were only condemned in Leviticus. It's written we are no longer under the schoolmaster (law) I'm not a proponent of homosexuality but I feel people loving each other is a far cry better than people hating each other.

Rick's comment: Hi Steve - ancient Jews were not greatly troubled by lesbians since no male seed was involved and the bloodline of Messiah was not in question.

Homosexual males were not condemned in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. Condemnation of gay men can only be alleged when the verses are taken out of context. In context, Lev 18:22 and 20:13 prohibit the idolatrous activity of shrine prostitutes.

Sep 30, 2014
Leviticus 20:13
by: Aaron Saltzer

If God was only condemning prostitution in Leviticus 18:22, why did he repeat the prohibition of a man lying with a man as with a woman in Leviticus 20:13 taking it a step further by adding the death penalty? There was no context in that chapter that would've given the hint that God was only condemning an idolatrous practice. Especially when it follows a long list of incestuous sexual prohibitions. There is no mention of idolatry.

Rick's comment: Hi Aaron - It always helps to understand context. You say "There was no context" in Leviticus 20; "that God was only condemning an idolatrous practice."

How did you miss Leviticus 20: 2, 3, 4, 5? Molech is the context, just as in Leviticus 18. Shrine prostitution in Leviticus.

Sep 30, 2014
Regarding polygamy and polyandry
by: Aaron Saltzer

Polygamy and polyandry were indeed prohibited in The N.T. of The Bible. I'd suggest reading 1 Corinthians 7:2.

Rick's comment: Hi Aaron - You are reading into 1 Corinthians 7:2 a lot of info that is not in the text. The ONLY prohibitions of polygamy in the New Testament are in 1 Timothy 3:2 and 12 and Titus 1:6. Those prohibitions are ONLY for bishops or elders and for deacons.

Does 1 Cor 7:2 exclude gays and lesbians from marriage?

Oct 01, 2014
Leviticus 20:13
by: Aaron Saltzer

So can we say that Incest was a part of worshiping Molech as well? That was also condemned before men lying with men was.

Rick's comment: Hi Aaron - we can say that incest was part of the worship of false gods like the gods of Egypt, which Jehovah and Moses prohibited in Lev 18:3.

Oct 01, 2014
Regarding polygamy and polyandry
by: Aaron Saltzer

Can you tell me what is in the text of 1 Corinthians 7 that would indicate Paul was not prohibiting polygamy and polyandry? I see nothing.

Rick's comment: Hi Aaron - Do you see the words polygamy or polyandry in the text or the context of 1 Cor 7 in any version in any language? Since those words are not in any version in any language in 1 Cor 7, we conclude that they are not the topic, not the subject under discussion.

Oct 01, 2014
Leviticus 20:13
by: Aaron Saltzeron

Where is the proof that incest was an idolatrous practice? That would've had to mean that God had to have called that an abomination or indicated that it was an idolatrous practice with one of the words available in the original language of The Bible. It would've also had to mean that God would've had to have a reason for condemning it in the N.T.

Rick's comment: Hi Aaron - Leviticus 18:3 links the prohibitions listed in Leviticus 18 and 20 to the false religions of Egypt and Canaan.

Please Google incest + ancient Egypt to get info about how integral incest was to the false religions of Egypt.

Oct 01, 2014
Regarding polygamy and polyandry
by: Aaron Saltzer

What was the subject then of 1 Corinthians 7:2? What do you think it was talking about, if not polygamy or polyandry?

Rick's comment: Hi Aaron - the subject of 1 Cor 7:2 is fornication. "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication..."

Oct 02, 2014
Regarding polygamy and polyandry
by: Aaron Saltzer

Well, it sounds like Paul thought that a monogamous heterosexual marriage avoided fornication. Otherwise he wouldn't have said that. Considering The Bible is the written word of God, we can assume that God thought the same thing.

Rick's comment: Hi Aaron - of course. Most people are hetero but 5% or more of us are not hetero yet the heteros often read into the text what the text does not say.

So problems arise because people try to read into 1 Cor 7:2 that God intended to forbid every kind of marriage that isn't one hetero man with one hetero woman. The text doesn't say that and the rest of the Bible doesn't say that.

Oct 03, 2014
Regarding polygamy and polyandry
by: Aaron Saltzer

Still, it sounds like Paul is trying to restrict marriage between a man and woman, in this case, to avoid fornication. It sounds like he's advising every man and woman to be monogamous.

Rick's comment: Hi Aaron - Paul makes it clear that he is not advising every man and woman to be monogamous when he says in 1 Cor 7:9 - "But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn." (in lust).

Oct 09, 2014
Wow Rick!
by: Victoria

Dear Rick, When you said in your reply to Faith (near the beginning of this thread), - "You have never studied the alleged anti-gay verses. You are incapable of discussing these verses intelligently. You cited no scripture and offered no arguments to support your opinion. You have not a clue about the context of the verses you believe forbid homosexuality."

When I look back on things I wrote later and listen to the tone, I think - I didn't mean it to sound that way. I wonder if that is the case here because it sounded harsh.

Rick's comment: Hi Victoria - Truth is sometimes perceived as harsh, especially by post-moderns who reject objective truth so no one will perceive them as harsh.

I am being encouraged to realize that all of us are created in the image of God and therefore we are sacred. We are not just talking about homosexuality here, we are also talking about real people,some of whom are deeply troubled by being gay. Is it because the society has labeled them that they are troubled? Is God talking to some people that they should not be gay?

Could a person be gay for the wrong reasons the same as a person could drink for the wrong reasons and for them be sin? When we have a philosophical debate about something we need to remember to leave room for the work of the Holy Spirit. I make the mistake of thinking that reason and a perfect answer is what is needed and then make the mistake of not realizing the person who is asking the question is breaking inside and for them the question is not just intellectual but a aching of the soul.

I just don't think it is a pat answer, but I do believe Scripture is clear. I liked what I heard from Michael Ramsden on the issue of sexuality without condemning people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_sLhHncgBs
See what you think - not that you would agree, but it's refreshing to have a loving compassionate discussion about the things we struggle with. Best wishes in Him!

Rick's comment: Hi Victoria - Here is my brief summary of the view Michael presents. He doesn't use these exact words, instead employing subtle obfuscation to answer the question about gay marriage.

1. No one is born gay.
2. God will change you.
3. Gays should be celibate because Mother Teresa was celibate and she lived a fulfilled life.
4. No one is born gay because arguments for biological determinism are weak.
5. Jesus was very clear that marriage is between a man and a woman.
6. The brain is a muscle that can be retrained. Gays can change if they're in a faith community and really try - it takes 9 years to reprogram your brain.

The subtle implication is that gays don't try hard enough or long enough, to change. Yet many gays did stay with Exodus for more than 9 years and still no change.

I don't view what Michael Ramsden said as compassionate or loving. He gave a pat answer - the old discredited Exodus International view, repackaged and reworded. It did not work for anyone in Exodus International for almost 40 years and it will not work for anyone now. That may be perceived as harsh but that is God's honest truth.

Oct 11, 2014
You advocate reading the bible, try it yourself
by: Andrew M

Please see below. There is no way to take these passages out of context. They are from the living word of God and are part of his instruction and divine authority over us. If the bible is truly from God, one must examine and accept ALL of its truth and not pick and choose verses that fit in with our culture or the way we think things ought to be.

Romans 1:26-27

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 & 1 Timothy 1:9-10

Rick's comment: Hi Andrew - citing the same verses over and over while refusing to study context, indicates you are a very young Christian OR you have an ulterior motive. Please remember: the Bible never means what you think it means while ignoring context. And Yes, every verse does have a context, 2 Timothy 2:15.

A verse without a context is a pretext for teaching something that is not true. If what you're teaching is true, the context will support your teaching. If what you're teaching is not true, you will make excuses for ignoring context. THAT is your clue to check what you're teaching and to study context, 2 Timothy 2:15.

Oct 12, 2014
Strong Effort
by: A Friend

Dear Friend, It's clear you want Jesus to say it's okay to be gay… So the fact that - yes - divorce and polygamy existed and were practiced does not in any way affirm homoerotic marriage.

Sincerely, homoerotic desires are as old as the hills… Having a roommate is not sinful. Loving someone is not sinful. It's sexual interaction among anyone who is not your spouse - and your spouse is defined to be someone who is faithful to God and the opposite gender.

Rick's comment: Hi Friend who is afraid to put your real name with your views - Polygamy and divorce and remarriage prove that God is NOT an absolute complementarian.

Polygamy and polygamists are blessed and affirmed in scripture AND represent biblical family values, 2 Samuel 12:7-8, 2 Chronicles 24:2-3, Deuteronomy 21:15-17. Divorce and remarriage is affirmed in churches from liberal Roman Catholics to ultra-conservative independent fundamental Baptists IN SPITE OF what Jesus said about divorce.

You folks who profess to believe the Bible do not really believe it. You just use it to push your anti-gay agenda. I believe you lack the guts and integrity to actually apply what the Bible says IN CONTEXT to your own life.

And that's the point. You profess to be a Friend yet you impose upon your gay brothers and lesbian sisters, heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, Matthew 23:4, yet you would never put that burden upon yourself.

You pick and choose, ignoring ANY verse which impinges upon your freedom yet you love putting grievous burdens upon others under the guise of being loving.

No thanks "Friend." We rejoice in the amazing grace of our loving Lord Jesus with Galatians 5:1 as our credo and we recommend it to you as the best way to live.

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."


Oct 12, 2014
Get real, get right
by: Michael Riley

Let's get real Rick, you know homosexuality is wrong and demonic so get right with God.

Rick's comment: Hi Michael - how very interesting. You cannot cite even one verse which IN CONTEXT, says what you believe about gays so you attempt to psych us into believing your Disneyland theology without ANY scriptural proof.

Those of us who by reason of use have our senses exercised to discern good and evil, Hebrews 5:14, are not swayed by your rhetoric. Isn't it time you stopped approaching the Bible with an anti-gay agenda and simply studied to shew yourself approved unto God? 2 Timothy 2:15

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