How does a mature gay Christian define sexual sin?

by Mollie
(Los Angeles, CA.)




How does a mature gay Christian define sexual sin is such a wonderful question Mollie. I've answered a similar question already, Since gay couples cannot legally marry is sex in a committed relationship sin?

In the context of your question, sexual sin is having sex outside a committed relationship, whether that committed relationship is called heterosexual marriage or gay marriage or holy union or civil union or some other name.

While I agree with you that God intends sex as part of a marriage or committed relationship, it seems to me your unasked question is, Since gays and lesbians cannot legally get married, isn't all gay or lesbian sex sinful? My answer is No.

I don't believe it is hypocritical for gay Christians to "have sex outside of marriage" as long as they are in a committed relationship with their sexual partner. In plainer words, the fact that it is not legal in most places for gays and lesbians to marry an orientation compatible partner does not mean they have no options.

If the federal government passed a law outlawing heterosexual marriage, would all heterosexuals be obligated to get divorced and remain celibate the rest of their lives? Of course not. It is basic common sense to apply the same logic to gay marriage.

People make statements like, God says in the Bible that the only permissible sex is in a marriage between a man and a woman.

Or, The only kind of marriage God will bless is between a man and a woman.

The truth is, the Bible never makes those statements. Those statements are someone's opinion instead of being what the Bible really says. Is there any evidence of a gay marriage in the Bible?

In the Bible the marriage of Adam and Eve was when flesh joined flesh. In Genesis 2:24 there were no churches in which to hold a wedding, no pastors, priests or rabbis to perform the ceremony, no marriage laws, no civil unions, no holy unions, no marriage licenses from the county, state or federal government.

The first Marriage in the Bible was when a man and a woman committed to live together as partners - no ceremony like we have today, no legal papers, no one officiating the wedding except perhaps God Himself.

And there were no wedding rings exchanged, no rice thrown. Yet it is important to remember that the story of Adam and Eve is descriptive, not prescriptive. It describes what happened with the first two people God created. God never tells us every other marriage must replicate the Adam and Eve marriage.

To read into the narrative of Adam and Eve that the only marriage God will bless is a marriage exactly like theirs, one man with one woman, is to read someone's opinion into the Bible.

Modern conservative family values are far different than family values in the Old Testament. We know God blesses marriages unlike the Adam and Eve marriage because God blessed the incestuous polygamous marriage of Abraham, Sarah and Hagar, Genesis 16. And later God blessed the marriage of Abraham, Keturah and the concubines, Genesis 25.

When Jacob came along a few chapters later, God blessed his marriage to four women and used the offspring of their polygamous marriage to form the twelve tribes of Israel.

A mature gay Christian always defines sexual sin by what the Bible actually says, not by what the Bible is presumed to teach. We base our beliefs on the written words of God, rightly divided, 2 Timothy 2:15.

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Mollie's original question:

"How does a mature gay christian define sexual sin?

I don't believe I should have sex until I get married because that is what God says in the bible. A lot of gay christians I know say it is okay to have sex even if they are not married. I feel we are being hypocritical to say it is okay for gay christians to have sex outside of marriage when it is clearly documented in the bible that it is not okay. So, how does a mature gay christian define sexual sin?"

Comments for How does a mature gay Christian define sexual sin?

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May 02, 2011
 I have some questions
by: Dava

I am a straight Christian woman, and I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God as it was originally written. But I have struggled with the English translations of the Bible on a number of topics, including this one.

When something seems "off" to me I like to use an online Bible and Greek/Hebrew dictionary to try to figure it out. It seemed to me that some of the references to "homosexuality" could be referring to temple prostitution, but I don't have your apparent background in biblical languages.

It is awesome to have the confirmation, and alternative interpretations of the other passages. I really did not want to believe that homosexuality is a sin (as long as it is within a monogamous lifelong relationship)!

I have a couple questions about your definition of relationships blessed by God, though.

1. Do you really think God "blessed" Abraham's adultery with Hagar or some of the other adulterous, polygamous relationships in the Bible?
Just because the Bible recorded them (or that the people who committed them loved and were loved by God) doesn't mean they're blessed. In fact, it seems like the consequences of some of those relationships were pretty dire, like the birth of the Islamic nations via Ishmael.

I worry that calling some of the abhorrent, immoral things that happened in the OT "blessed of God" may detract from your overall credibility.

2. I want to be sure that I am clear on what you mean by a "committed" relationship. I know the modern marriage ceremony is not biblical but do you believe that people, gay or straight, should have ONE sexual partner (spouse) for LIFE (unless one dies)? And that they should not have sex until they agree that they are committed for life?

3. Do you agree with the stereotype that unsaved gay people tend to have more sexual partners? If so, do you think that if gay marriage were legalized and accepted, more gay people would become Christians and honor God in their sexual relationships (e.g., waiting until marriage)?
May 03, 2011
 You may be surprised at my answers
by: Rick Brentlinger

Hi Dava-

1. Yes, I really do believe God blessed Abraham's marriage with Hagar. Abraham, Sarah and Hagar regarded it as a marriage, Genesis 16:3.

And remember that three times the Bible refers to Abraham as the friend of God. I think it is also important to remember that God Himself chose the children of Jacob and his four wives to form the nation of Israel.

2. I believe a committed relationship is when two people covenant before God and their community to live as a married couple.

I do not believe that two people are irrevocably locked into a marriage for life until someone dies. That is not the standard for marriage in the Bible. Sexual unfaithfulness, Matthew 19:9, and desertion, 1 Cor 7:10-11, 27-28, are two possible reasons for divorce in the Bible. And while those are the only two listed reasons, it seems to me quite a stretch to infer that those are the only reasons.

The wife of the BTK serial killer divorced after he was arrested for multiple murders. Does not common sense tell us that if it is okay to divorce a cheating spouse, it is okay to divorce a serial killer spouse?

Zero possibility for divorce is not the standard heterosexuals put upon themselves. It seems most unfair therefore to try to force that zero tolerance standard onto the GLBT community.

3. It may be true that unsaved gay people have more sexual partners. Did you see the interesting article which appeared in the August, 2009 issue of Christianity Today?

In a nationally representative study of young adults, just under 80 percent of unmarried, church- going, conservative Protestants who are currently dating someone admitted they are having sex without being married.

Did you get that astonishing percentage? They are unmarried christian heterosexuals yet they are having sex! Conservative Christian single young heterosexual adults - almost 80% of them are having sex outside of marriage!!!

Here are some Links about homosexual marriages in the Bible.

1. Is there any evidence of an actual gay marriage in the Bible?

2. Is gay marriage scriptural?

3. Gay marriages can't produce children so case closed, right?

4. Does be fruitful and multiply cancel gay marriage?

5. Gay couples in the Bible?

Many thanks for your interesting questions.
May 03, 2011
 Just to clarify what I'm asking
by: Dava

1. I don't have a response to your point about the nation of Israel being born of polygamy. That has always been an issue for me, but it is still a UNIQUE example of something good coming from polygamy. I still don't agree that Abraham's adultery was blessed by God just because Abraham was a "friend of God" and Genesis 16:3 includes a word that's often (but not close to always) translated "wife" in reference to Hagar. It seems pretty clear to me that this was an act of faithlessness toward God and His promise, it led to bitterness and strife, and it resulted in the nation of Islam, Israel's greatest enemy. Friends of God do sin against Him, and I believe this is an example of that.

I posted the link to this site on my Facebook page after I wrote my comments here. Of the few people who actually visited the site before commenting on the link, one brought up this exact issue (Hagar) and said to her it was a "red flag" that discouraged her from taking anything else on the site seriously. Just so you know. I'm saying this with the intent of helping, not arguing. You may want to consider the fact that claiming that certain acts of sin and rebellion were "blessed" by God in the OT does not help your case (it may hurt it)and it clouds/detracts from the real issue.

2. I did not mean to imply that divorce is never, ever okay. I'm talking about the intent of the people who enter into the covenant of marriage. Do they INTEND for it to be a lifelong commitment? Do they wait to have sex until they make a commitment with that intent and declare their covenant before God and their community? Do you believe that the reason for divorce has to be extremely compelling, like adultery or abuse (or serial murder)?

3. I am aware that premarital sex among heterosexual Christians is very, very prevalent. This is fornication, which IS sin according to the Bible, there is not a question about that. What I am trying to clarify is the stereotype of gay people being less inclined toward monogamy, if it's true and if it is different for Christians who are gay.

I will be blunt. What I am trying to dig out here is whether you are trying to justify polygamy (even if the multiple "spouses" are consecutive rather than concurrent). If homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible, and two people of the same sex/gender (who claim to be Christian) can wait until they've made a public, LIFELONG (barring extreme circumstances) commitment to monogamy before having sex, I'm okay with that. But I can't tell if you are trying to justify fornication, adultery and/or polygamy (which is adultery). (continued in next comment)
May 03, 2011
 A bit more clarification and a question
by: Dava

(continued from last comment)
I am totally with you on your alternative interpretations of the "clobber" passages. I don't think that it's a given that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible. I am compelled by your examples of homosexual relationships in the Bible, although I have not yet studied them out for myself.

But I need to make sure I'm clear where you stand on the issue of sexual morality. I will not be able to get behind any ministry that condones immoral sexual behavior (assuming that homosexuality in and of itself is not immoral) by anybody who claims to be a follower of Christ. I believe that, according to the Bible, immoral sexual behavior is ANY sex before or outside of "marriage" -- a COVENANT recognized by the couple and the community as a monogamous, committed relationship sealed with the INTENTION that it will last for life. Where do you stand on this?
May 03, 2011
 Answers for thoughtful Christians
by: Rick Brentlinger

Hi Dava-

In Genesis 16:3, the Holy Spirit uses the same Hebrew word ishshah meaning wife, to describe Sarai and Hagar.

According to God, this was not adultery (as you called it) but was a real marriage. Concerning whether or not God blessed this situation, God says in Genesis 17:7 that He has blessed Ishmael. The Abrahamic covenant did not go through Ishmael however.

Concerning whether gay people are less inclined toward monogamy, the gay Christians I know are inclined toward monogamy. Gay people tend to support gay marriage rights, indicating our preference for monogamy, while anti-gay christians, almost 80% of whom are having sex outside of marriage, tend to oppose our right to marry, which is really odd, don't you think?

I am not sure why you believe I am trying to justify polygamy since I make clear on the website that is not my intention. Your statement that "I can't tell if you are trying to justify fornication, adultery and/or polygamy..." is rather strange. Nothing on my website could be reasonably viewed as an attempt to justify fornication, adultery or polygamy.

Concerning immoral sexual behavior, again, your question strikes me as odd. Conservative churches are filled with divorced and remarried people in spite of the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 19:9. Many of them, including pastors, have been divorced and remarried more than once or twice.

Conservative churches are battling a tidal wave of porn among Christians and sex outside of marriage among Christians yet focusing in on gays and their sexual sins while ignoring the gross sexual sins in the christian community. Here are some Links to information about our gay Christian beliefs.

1. Did God intend men or women to have committed same sex marriage partnerships?

2. When is it appropriate for a same sex couple to begin a sexual relationship?

3. Does 1 Cor 7:2 exclude gays and lesbians from marriage?

Given what I so clearly state on this website, that sex is something God intended for couples in committed relationship, I believe I have adequately answered your questions.
May 14, 2012
 The Infilling of the Holy Spirit
by: Rae

I see that you leave the Power of the Holy Spirit out of most of your discussions. Speaking in other tongues (not in some uncontrolled spooky way) would give you the control and power to overcome all lusts, whether same sex or otherwise.

That is the missing ingredient is your whole webpage. Until you receive the Holy Spirits power, you will be a victim to all urges and unbridled passions.

I realized that a lot of Christians struggle with temptations, and there are not a lot of answers for same sex struggles, which is why people are not free. All sexual struggles if not conquered will have you in prison for life.

Rick's comment: Rae, I encourage you to move beyond fleshly signs and wonders (speaking in tongues is one of the least important gifts) and grow in the word of God in your walk with Christ. R.A. Torrey's Bible study book, The Holy Spirit, would be a good place to start.

I also recommend our Bible study on deliverance ministries.
May 28, 2012
 It is obvious there should never be ok for homosexuals
by: Debb

If it were meant for woman and woman, man and man together in sexual relationship, then these would be able to have children the natural way, no god nor any other can justify this to be normal. If we allow this to continue the world will certainly end sooner than later.

After all how would we populate, bout time we as human beings start to wake up and see just how we are destroying life, don't worry about saving our planet from carbon, just get life back to the way it is meant. I'm no homopobia either but this is just so bloody obvious

Rick's comment: Only about 5% of humanity is homosexual so there has never been a worry that the human race will die out. Are you aware that there are now 7 billion people on earth? Have you considered the consequences of your anti-gay beliefs? Would you put us in concentration camps, confiscate our property, kill us?

I hope you will take the Are you a good person? test. It may help you sort things out.
Sep 05, 2012
 Stuff the Bible clearly says about homosexuality
by: Chris

Leviticus 18:22
“Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.

Leviticus 20:13
“If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,

1 Timothy 1:10
The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching

Rick's comment: Hi Chris - thanks for reminding us of these excellent verses. Has it occurred to you that in context, these verses do not address homosexuality at all?

In fact, the context of each of the above verses is temple prostitution or some other kind of prostitution. These verses do not address lesbians at all and do not address two men falling in love and forming a marriage partnership.

My prayer is that you will obey 2 Timothy 2:15 and continue to study instead of assuming based on your lack of study, that reading your 21st century presuppositions into the Biblical text is the correct way to understand these verses. Many thanks for stopping by.

P.S. - If truth is something you find interesting, you may want to click on the NavBar links to discover the context of the verses you cited.

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